Turning Red: What Your Teen's Meltdowns Are Really Telling You | Mitchell Acton

0:00 Most people will choose familiarity over functionality. I'm going to choose what's familiar. That feels safer to me than choosing what's a little bit more functional. Sometimes as parents, we forget that. Like, oh, they're just being so difficult. Oh, they're just so hard. Like, actually, I think their brains are developing. Like, this is kind of the way it's supposed to work. Yeah, actually, I'd be more concerned if that really obedient kind of phase that you see a little bit more with children, that was also happening into adolescence. Potentially, is there a developmental delay here? I think the panda is partially a metaphor for puberty and just going through puberty and all of those changes. But I think it also represents some of those suppressed thoughts and feelings.

0:41 Mei Lin is interpreting as like, oh, I can't share this thought or feeling. because it's going to make my mom sad. It's also interesting to me to see how big mom's panda was. To me, that's an indication of how much she had suppressed. And then you get that brief picture of her as a child and that inner child piece of it. I'm going to lose this relationship if I try to set a boundary. But she finally opens up about that and gets to the core of, I think, what her worst fear would be. I set a boundary with you and tell you really how I feel. You're not going to love me anymore. If you're not... aware of your system then you're just reacting to your system welcome to yes and land where we say yes to the reality of yesterday and today and we say and to the possibility growth and imagination of tomorrow Welcome everybody to our next episode of Yes and Land. We are very excited today. We've got a terrific guest on tap today. I'm very excited to dive into some really fun, interesting topics that I think are really applicable to a lot of parents today. Today we have Mitchell Acton, who is a terrific individual who I've known for a little while. He's the clinical director at Kane Counseling, which is a terrific place, and it's well -deserved for him to be the clinical director. Loads of experience. He does this, both sees his own patients, but also helps the

2:12 people over at that place as well to do some amazing things for a lot of people. So we're very excited to have you on today. Super excited to be here. This is going to be a lot of fun. Yeah, it's going to be a good time. So today, part of our topic is we're going to be looking at... Emotion suppression. We're going to be looking at some things like enmeshment versus empathy. Also on how we can better understand and deal with our teens when they're going through a lot of things. Oh, yeah. As teens do. Yes. And we're trying to understand them, trying to be better parents, trying to help guide them better. So, again, really excited about what that can, where we can go with that conversation. And we're going to look at that through the lens of a Disney Pixar movie, Turning Red. Yeah. Which is so... on point for this topic. Absolutely.

3:00 Right. Yeah. As I rewatched it and we had kind of had our pre conversation, I'm like, oh, my goodness, this is so applicable. There's so many lessons to be pulled out. Oh, yeah. Yeah. As I remember the first time I watched it, I was, you know, especially my clinical brain watching it, just observing all of these things. And it's actually become something that I've actually recommended to some of the families that I work with is to watch this movie because it explains and shows. these dynamics play out just so beautifully. Oh, that's fantastic. I didn't know that. Amazing. So Mitch is oftentimes what people call you, right? So we're going to go Mitch. Maybe I sometimes pop into Mitchell. Who knows? We might play by how that goes, right? I respond to both. So, you know, you can call me whatever you want.

3:42 Just don't call me wait for dinner is what I'll say. So you're on time guy. Yes. Yeah. You're always on time. I like that. I like that. I could probably use some of those lessons. Strive to be. And then I always stress myself out when I'm not, but I'm not always perfectly on time either. Is what it is. We all deal with things, right? Absolutely. That's right. So Mitch, kind of take us back a little bit. What got you into therapy and social work from the get go? Like what inspired you to go in that direction with your career? Yeah. Yeah. So I never thought that I was going to do that. Like if you would have asked me when I was. a kid, teenager, I wouldn't have told you like, yeah, I want to be in the mental health field. I think I always had this quality of kind of being. Oh, like my friend group growing up, they call me the glue guy, you know, the glue that kind of keeps everybody together. I certainly helped like mediate conversations if some of my friends were in conflict with each other and kind of be the peacemaker, so to speak, there or be supportive of people. So I think that was just something naturally about my personality.

4:47 You know, certainly I've done personality tests, too. And, you know, I'm a helper. by nature, my personality. But I actually have always been really passionate about history. And so I went to college. I originally went to study history. And then in the midst of my collegiate journey and kind of popping around between a few different majors, I ended up taking a general psychology class. And in that point in time, in that in that point in time, I think I was struggling with some depression and anxiety as well. And just like kind of not. really known direction or where I was headed next. And I was learning something really interesting every single time I would go to that class period. And so I ended up meeting with my student counselor over at University of Utah. Ask them we know what what career options are there if I were to go into psychology? And she actually linked me to working in a residential treatment center with with teenagers with teenage boys And that was kind of my first job in the mental health field that went around here locally. Yeah Yeah, it's actually just over in Draper called gateway Academy But it's it's yeah loved working there worked there for a couple years as one of the main full -time staff And it was there that I learned. Okay. I think I want to go into mental health as a career. I've had some education in it. I've had some actual experience in a workplace environment. So I ended up going back. I ended up choosing the Master of Social Work degree program at University of Utah, which was great. I loved it. And yeah,

6:18 that led me to being a licensed clinical social worker and worked in a few different places up to this point. But yeah, now I'm clinical director over at Kean Counseling Center. Amazing. Here's a question for you. As you've looked at these things, and you probably have about yourself as well, where did that come from where you were kind of that person who was always mediating? That comes from somewhere, right? Yeah. Was there experiences that you had where you were kind of forced into that? Or why do you feel like that was kind of where you ended up being drawn? Because I was a little bit that same way. Sure, yeah. That definitely was like I was the guy that was trying to, you know. bring people together bring tensions down like yeah always that guy yeah You know, it's hard to pinpoint. And, you know, maybe I should do some of my own therapy more about that. But but there's I think there's a certain point or like the thing that really stood out to me that I know I know about myself now is that I really value connection and I really value connection in relationships to the world around me. You know, whatever connection is really important. And I think there were times growing up as a kid that I really felt like I didn't have. that connection. And then there were times where I found it in certain relationships or classes or hobbies or whatever, you know, and I noticed the reaction I had to that and feeling like really drawn to that and like it really mattered to me. And so, I mean, like this group of high school friends that were that came out, I'm still. Close friends. We just went to Palm

7:48 Springs and did a trip together like last month, you know, so very. Yeah, I've always really cared about connection and meaningful relationships, even from a young age, which which makes it easier in doing this work as I'm working with families or couples or even individuals is I really, truly believe in the value of connection, genuine connection. And one of the one of the things I really like helping people with is how to find connection. Yeah. when uh growing up were you uh only child did you have some siblings where did you fall yeah so i i was the oldest of three kids um and and a little bit interesting so me and my siblings are all adopted so i had oh i was the oldest my daughter my younger sister was uh 10 months younger than me and then i have a younger brother who's four four years younger than me interesting so okay so y 'all were adopted yeah how did that how did that play out like did you know You were when you got adopted? Were you adopted as a baby?

8:47 Like, what was that? Yeah, so I was adopted as a baby. It was all prearranged adoption even before I was born. My birth mom was 15, I think, when she had me. So she had already met with my parents, and that had all kind of been arranged and knew where I was going right off the bat. And that was actually the same way with my younger siblings as well. When did they tell you? Like, at what age was it like, hey, Mitchell? Yeah. You are adopted. Like, what did that look like? How'd that play out for you? Yeah, it's a great question. And I get that one a lot, too. And I don't remember the exact moment that they told me I was adopted, but I kind of remember just always knowing. And part of the reason is because my brother and sister are black. So there was just that aspect of like, oh, we don't look all the same. Right. And so just naturally that kind of came up. So I don't remember the exact moment, but I also. I always just kind of remember always knowing that we were adopted. So it was pretty early on that I knew. Interesting. My brother, he ended up adopting his stepdaughter. Okay, yeah. But she knew him. Like that was the only dad that she knew. I think she was six or seven months old. Yeah. Her mom and my brother got together and so she didn't know another dad, right? But I remember that kind of being a thing of like when's the right time to like actually sit and have that conversation Yeah, it's always it's always a challenge to try to find the right timing for that because that can I Think that can be really hard for some kids. Yeah. Yeah,

10:19 it absolutely can. You know, in fact when I worked in residential treatment I did briefly run a group for adopted teens because we had a handful of kids that would come through there that were adopted i we uh my wife and i with our youngest we had her through a surrogacy okay so biologically my wife and i yeah but you know gestational carriers the one who gave birth right and we just decided like early on we were gonna always have that conversation right like yeah hey you you came from somebody else's belly right but you're you're you know you're your mom and i but you came from somebody else's belly and so like she she's six now But she's always kind of like had that terminology there that for us that seemed like the right thing to do because that can be, I mean, they don't understand the science behind it. They don't understand how that's working, right? There's no idea, right? Like, okay, well, this is what it is. But we just decided to have that conversation earlier. It's always made me think like, you know, how do those really play out? How do parents make good decisions about when to eventually have those conversations because of the impact that it can have on kids when they... you know, feel like it is. Have you ever had that feeling of like, you need to go get to know who your biological parents were or seek them out? Yeah, I think so. I mean, and one of the things that I'll talk and I've learned, especially through like a, through clinically working with folks that have been adopted is that there, there is just a natural curiosity and kind of biological draw to where you come from. And so it just exploring

11:50 that. In fact, there's this book called The Primal Wound that talks about like adoption can be almost the first attachment wound that somebody experiences because you're no longer with your biological parent. Right. And so, yeah, in terms of like when I've had the conversation with people like when to actually say, hey, you know, you are adopted. And there's multiple schools of thought on this, I think, but generally I really like your approach of keeping things just kind of open and transparent, having the space to, to talk about it because as they, you said your daughter's six. Yeah. Yeah. She's six right now.

12:33 But eventually she's going to be a teenager and that brain's going to start developing and she's going to all of a sudden develop this ability to abstractly think. And she's, She's going to start having questions, more questions about it that are developmentally, they're different from a six year old versus a 13 year old versus an 18 year old or something. Right. And so since you've laid that groundwork already of like, hey, we can talk about this. We can talk about this anytime you want. You know, this is something that we're totally open with you about. In my opinion. you're setting the groundwork. You've set the conversations up for success to continue. So I don't know if I answered your question, but. I mean, it sounds like if appropriate and when possible, maybe start the conversations early so that when the deeper questions come, they know it's okay to ask them. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there may be, nothing's black and white. There may be times where that's not the best thing, right? So I just want to throw that out there too. But just in general, that's usually what I would advise. Yeah. Have you reconnected with your biological parents at all? Oh, yeah, yeah. So I have spoke with my biological mother.

13:41 And I've actually met just by chance one of my half -siblings at In -N -Out one time. Just happened to meet. So anyways. Kind of quick recap. I was like 15. I had my half -sister reach out to me through MySpace. MySpace, that is going back a ways, isn't it? Holy moly. Yeah, I wish MySpace was still around. That was my favorite social media platform of them all. So I loved being able to pick my song and my whole profile and everything about it. But yeah, so she reached out to me through MySpace when I was like 15 or something and didn't tell me right away who she was. We just kind of talked. But yeah, ended up just kind of spilling the beans that she was my biological half -sister. And then from there, ended up connecting with my... my, with my bio mom and, um, haven't met my bio mom, but she, uh, texts me every year on my birthday and we just kind of talk and check in about how things are going. And some of my other siblings have, have also started to reach out to me as well.

14:47 And again, I think it's just that, that curiosity, right? You just want to know kind of like where you're, where you're from. Um, and I think you can see that too, like from a clinical perspective, again, with, with folks that are adopted, kids that are adopted, um, they. they might have this sense of loneliness or like struggling to belong or struggling with identity or to identify, yeah, like what is my place here? And oftentimes I will see that it's tied back all the way back to when they were a little, little kid or even a baby and they were adopted even before their consciousness was fully developed. So it's super powerful. It's, I mean. This is kind of changing gears a little bit, but it's also part of the reason when I'm working with family systems and trying to help parents who have gone through a divorce understand the value of both parents to this child, that it is inherently valuable, that most of the time it's not going to be the best thing for them not to have any tie or connection to both of their parents or one of their parents.

15:49 Yeah, and you bring up an interesting point there, which is... Talking about family systems therapy. Yeah. And I think it's becoming, I think, more and more common, more and more popular. Yeah. I think there's still a lot of people out there outside of like our circles. Right. As a divorce attorney, as a therapist that don't know what that is. They're starting to hear that term. But like, what is family systems therapy? Yeah. So what would be kind of your basic breakdown of what family systems therapy is? Yeah. So family systems therapy. specifically within the court -ordered sense, because you could also do it, I guess, in a different sense of parents who are still married and working with a family system.

16:30 I think it often overlaps with the term reunification therapy. Just historically, I think that's been kind of intertwined where it's, oh, there's parent -child contact problems or a parent is not seeing their kid for whatever reason, and so we're trying to reunify. Again, there's a lot of schools have thought about this. This is just opinion according to Mitch. But I think family systems is a little bit more all encompassing and overall more effective for the long term rather than just purely focusing on a reunification effort or reunification approach. And the reason is that reunification often focuses just on that one piece of the system of reconnecting parent and child where family systems will focus on. that, but it's also addressing the whole family system. And so what family systems therapy is, is addressing dysfunction within the family system, specifically with divorced couples. It often probably predated the divorce actually happening. So they were developing over time.

17:35 Now it's resulted in divorce. And now maybe that dysfunction has just grown exponentially because of the divorce. And so what the family systems therapy process does is goes in and it looks at each piece of that system. So the mom, the dad, the kids, whoever is involved in that system. And we really look at where how do they contribute to the dysfunction and how is everyone affected by the dysfunction? And then in doing that, you can address, okay, the reunification potentially that maybe needs to happen within this family. But also how is the other parent then supporting that piece of it? How are they communicating with their co -parent? How are they communicating with their child that's reconnecting with the parent? And expressing to them, like as I just said, the importance. I mean to the core, like on a cellular level that we feel a connection to our biological parents of how important that is. The reality that if this if there's not a successful way to repair this relationship, that it's a predictor for relationship failure in the future, specifically within the romantic relationships and adult relationships. And so just, yeah, that role of because I think there will be a parent that will be like, this is their thing. I don't really need to be involved in it. You know, it's their relationship. And I think that's really downplaying the impact in the role that they have. And downplaying the significance of their role within the family system. They're an important piece of it. Do

19:05 you find that it's really hard for the, I'm going to call, I'm going to put some labels that maybe aren't right, but just so that we all kind of get on the same page. Sure. The bad actor parent, right? Maybe they did something wrong, right? And that's why there's having to be unification. And the good actor parent, is it sometimes really difficult for the good actor parent to engage in that family system therapy? There's this feeling that, well, I didn't do anything wrong. They're the one who did something wrong. But really what I'm hearing is for this family systems to work, they've got to be a pretty active participant. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I'm, you know, I'll kind of give people a good, better, best scenario where it's like, hey, best case scenario. So everybody's participating. That gives you the best prognosis. We can still do some stuff that would be effective. But if certain people in the family are not participating. Well, I just want you to know that the ceiling kind of drops down a bit of where we can kind of go to with this. So I do think it is difficult a lot of times for the parent who does have the good relationship with the with their child, you know, because at that point they're not invested in the marriage, but they're still invested in their kids. Right.

20:14 And so if that piece is all good, you know, I don't want to speak for for anybody, but, you know, I don't that relationship is. significantly less of a priority now that they're divorced. And so how do we, a big trick of the puzzle is how do we still get parents to prioritize and recognize the value in the other parent for the sake of their children, not necessarily for themselves. I mean, I think they benefit if they have a good co -parenting relationship too, less stress, more peace, but specifically just because it's what the kids will really need. because they need to know they can love both of their parents and they need to feel safe loving both of their parents and knowing, oh, mom is okay with me loving dad and dad is okay with me loving mom.

21:00 And I feel that from them. But if I'm feeling like, hmm, yeah, you know, I can't be totally emotionally honest about positive things that are happening with parent A over here with parent B, well, it creates some of the dynamics I think we'll talk about in Turning Red, you know, as we talk about Turning Red. I mean that and that's exactly where my mind went like you could almost see my mind go there I was like, yes, because we're talking about suppression, right? Yeah, and when kids feel like they have to suppress those emotions and it's such a perfect time here So I'm gonna set the stage real quick. So turning red for anybody who hasn't seen it is This movie that's it's about this this gal who I don't know if she's a tween or a teenager, but she's 13 She's 13. Okay, so she's 13 years old And she's got some pretty strict parents, especially her mom, right? And so his main character is Mei Lin. I think she goes, they call her Mei Mei, right? That's what mom calls her, but I think Mei Lin is her name. And she's got this really strict mom who's got this kind of exacting standard that she's expecting Mei Lin to always follow.

22:04 And then at the beginning of the movie, you can see that manifest through Mei Lin's relationship with her friends. Loves her friends, has a great time with her friends, but she is pulling herself away because she's got to go do this, this, and this, and her mom... demands that she do you gotta go play her instrument their mom demands to do she's gonna do extra homework right their mom demands that she do she's got to go clean the temple that they have because her mom demands that she does it and so you see this relationship from the beginning that's just very strict nayland's always trying to please her mom trying to do exactly what her mom wants her mom has this very exacting standard that she has and then what you start to see is that that there's this suppression of her emotions that starts to come become manifest when she has these big emotions which is she turns into a red panda yes which is which is such a fun way to show how these emotions get bottled up and then come out right it comes out in this giant red panda right and so she's got to go through the experience of having these big emotions turning into a red panda finding a way to calm herself down and then not be a red panda. And then how that relationship plays out with her mom, who, as it turns out, this is a family trait. The family, the women in this family, that's what happens with them. When they reach a certain age, they become red pandas.

23:19 They have to learn how to control it. And I guess you could say suppress it, right? Yeah. Yep. Kind of what happens, right? Mom suppresses it for a really long time. And then you start to see their relationship. play out and how they deal with those emotions of it coming out or does it need to be suppressed or just dealt with yeah that's kind of the overall stage of this of this movie right yeah yeah absolutely so So kind of talk us through when you were thinking about, obviously, your particular work and the things that you're passionate about and you deal with, especially when it comes to helping parents with their kids. Why Turning Red? Why was that the movie that you were like, this is the one we should talk about? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think just exactly that, because I see it every day, it seems like, you know, is these different family dynamics and certainly seeing. Kids or even adults suppressing their emotions, family systems dysfunction, and seeing that as well, you know, in turning red. Parenting as well. You know, how do you parent a teenager? Like I mentioned before, you know, as when we were talking about your daughter, like a six -year -old compared to a 13 -year -old. Well, when a kid hits 13, the ability to think. abstractly about things to critically think like that, that muscle starts to begin to develop. And so it's like this whole new thing and why you start to see that strive for independence, more of the rebelliousness or the argumentativeness start to come up because now they're like, now they can do that. Whereas before the brain literally

24:50 wasn't able to do that. And so seeing that. It's what I work with every day. And so Turning Red popped up and I've actually recommended this movie to families I've been working with as kind of like a clinical example or case study to look at. Now, I want to acknowledge this, too. While we're talking about this, like from a clinical framework, this movie, I also do want to acknowledge the cultural aspect of this and acknowledging that I'm not a part of the Chinese culture. And so there's a lot there that I don't know about. And do you just want to acknowledge that? That piece of it as well. I mean, there's unique things in different cultures that come into play in the way that parents are seen or children interact and cultural pressures that come based off of different cultures that are there. Let me read a quote for you. I think this kind of sets the stage really well for some of the things that May Lynn is feeling right at the beginning. I'm going to get your take on it. She says right at the very beginning, the number one rule in my family, honor your parents. They're the supreme beings who gave you life, who sweated and sacrificed so much to put a roof over your head, food on your plate, an epic amount of food. The least you can do in return is every single thing they ask. Which is this wild, right? Which is wild.

26:11 So, you know, when, when we're looking at this, of this, this girl who's experiencing this transition from her brain, not being able to understand that something different to now she's 13 and starting to like, what, what is that experience like for kids as we're trying to understand what our kids are going through? Yeah. Yeah. That's, I love that quote too. What it's just kind of funny, right? It's a funny way to kind of start off the movie. And I think everybody kind of chuckles at it. Parents and kids maybe chuckle at it. And and but what I my take on it, again, not that this is right or wrong, but my take is she she has grown up within this family system and developed these family norms, which is my parents provide. This is what their role is.

26:55 They provide for me. food and clothes and shelter and all the things that i need and what my job is is to make sure i honor them and i follow through with my responsibilities and my duty to them so in a sense um you know it's this kind of core foundational beliefs that we're seeing may uh share for the first time which is this is how i view the world and how i interpret the world which is And I've known this my whole life. This is what I do. I do everything that my parents ask. And that's what I do. And then this is what they do. But as we see throughout the movie, she's turned 13. You know, I think it's reasonable to surmise that, yeah, she's getting into adolescence where she's wanting that independence. And she's thinking differently about all of this stuff that she was originally brought up with. And so now she's wanting to kind of push back against that and challenge it, which is appropriate for a teenager to do. Yeah. Which I think sometimes as parents, we, we forget that. Yeah. Like, Oh, they're just being so difficult. Oh, they're just so hard. Like, right. Actually, I think their brains are developing normal. Like, yeah, this is kind of the way it's supposed to work.

28:02 Doesn't mean it's fun. Yeah. Right. Doesn't mean it's easy to do and navigate with your kids, but actually it's pretty normal for kids to kind of start acting out and finding their own way. Yeah. Actually, I'd be more, more concerned if that, uh, That really obedient kind of phase that you see a little bit more with children, younger children, if that was also happening into adolescence. To me, that would say potentially is there a developmental delay here? And I don't want to see that in my 20 -year -old where they're now becoming rebellious, pushing back against authority figures. And now there's potential legal consequences for that because they're an adult. For sure. For sure. Okay, so let me take you to another quote that's not in the movie.

28:43 Yeah. But I really like this one. Have you heard of Daniel Pink? Do you know who he is? I'm not sure. He's an author, public speaker, and he does a lot about motivations at work specifically. Okay. But I think this quote really is kind of core to what this development is being. What he said is, human beings have an innate inner drive to be autonomous, self -determined, and connected to one another. And when that drive is liberated, people achieve more and live richer lives. So he talks a lot about this idea of autonomy at work, that people need autonomy at work not to be micromanaged. But I think what we're seeing here with kids this age and May specifically here is that starting to realize that there can be some autonomy. And like we just said, it's pretty natural for that to start coming out.

29:32 So what's your take on that both for kids and also maybe for us as adults on this idea of like, exactness and following this versus a bit more of autonomy. Yeah. Yeah. There's, you know, there's that exact use. You saying exactness makes me think of this other thing too, of like kind of tying it into discipline. Like there is also, there's room for autonomy and there's room for exactness. Um, you know, a, an exactness, whether it's, uh, following through with my routine or my schedule or whatever. Like we also know that is helpful for. Certainly for kids and adolescents and adults, adults are oftentimes helping provide that structure and that routine for their kids.

30:15 And I think it's within that structure and routine where as a parent, you could look at where can I let out a little bit more rope as my kid gets a little bit older and they've started to develop more trust as well and let them fluctuate and experience some autonomy within that structure that you provide for them while they're still. uh, still a minor, but I, I, I totally think it's true. I mean, I think in my own personal experiences, um, I don't enjoy being micromanaged, you know, I enjoy being able to, to know kind of what the overall goal is or what we're working on. And then I can kind of be autonomous and going through my processes and, and utilizing my strengths to be able to do that because what my strengths are may not be your strengths. And so if I do it exactly the way you do it, it may not actually get the same result because that may not be my strong suit. And so being open to, hey, everybody has different strengths. There's more than one right way to do something. Let's allow some autonomy, provide the scaffolding or the structure when we need it to. But yeah, the autonomy is certainly important. I think about like being an adolescent. Oh man, I probably drove my parents crazy, like wanting to push.

31:25 I actually had a manager when I was a teenager. He eventually started calling me the lawyer. Because I would just argue about everything. And I wanted to do things how I wanted to do them. I wanted that autonomy really bad. Yeah. Before we jump back in, can I ask you a quick favor? If you're enjoying the journey so far, will you like, rate, and subscribe to our show? It helps us reach more people like you. We can design and create and build the most wonderful place in the world, but it takes people to make the dream a reality. I do think it's interesting. I love the point that you're making there, which is it's really both. We need to have both. We need to have this. We need to have autonomy, but we also need to have some exactness and some discipline and some structure. And finding that balance is part of the challenge of life. Totally.

32:15 Your kids are learning it, and they're going to at times get it wrong. They're going to push too hard. Sometimes as parents, we're going to get it. Not sometimes. A lot of times we're going to get it wrong. We're going to try to be too exacting, or we're going to be too loosey -goosey on stuff. and allow our kids to take advantage. But I think for me, communication and open communication, that's really important, especially for employees, people I work with. Because the last thing I want to do is be micromanaging. I don't want to do that at all. I do have standards that I want to be upheld. And so when I have employees that are willing to have that open communication with me and say, hey. I really want to be able to do my own thing here. I want to be able to have a little more autonomy here, a little more discretion here. It's really helpful for me.

32:58 And then if I can have that same conversation back, like, hey, what I want to do here is provide that for you here within these boundaries, within this standard that we need to have held here because we need to meet a certain standard, then you get to go explore around and see what that looks like to get there. Totally. And I don't even want to be in the position of micromanaging. people either. Like it's not, that's more work for me and it's more stressful. You know, I was just interviewing somebody recently and, um, you know, I just said, Hey, there's, you know, I will provide scaffolding and structure and the overall goals and things that need to get done, but I'm going to let you really decide whatever your process is going to be for that, you know? And, um, and that's what I would prefer. And yeah, I can step in as, as needed, or of course there to help answer any questions or.

33:43 provide assistance along the way, but I don't want to be the person that's saying, no, you need to do this, this, and this, this way. Yeah. Yeah. Totally fair. So one of the things too, I think we see in turning red that, uh, that I wanted to get your take on too, is this idea of enmeshment versus empathy. Yeah. Because I mean, I think, I think we know that empathy can be a great tool. Yeah. Um, you know, being empathetic to somebody's situation, we can assume more positive intent. We could try to understand them more. But there's this line that we could cross over into being enmeshed with them, not knowing where we end and where they start. And I think we see that with Mei Mei and her mom, right? That they really had become enmeshed. I don't think Mei Lan understood where she ended and where her mom started. In fact, I think I actually have a quote from that. Where is it? Oh, yeah. So she says, I do make my own moves. It's just that some of my moves are also hers. Yes. You're like, well, OK. Another one that's so funny. And so how do we what is the difference for you between this idea of empathy versus enmeshment and how do we navigate that? Yeah. So I guess starting with enmeshment, enmeshment. uh typically is it's a dysfunctional family pattern where and you said it beautifully it's one of the best ways i've heard to describe it which is where does one person end and the other person begin and if it's hard to to the clinical term is differentiate that and differentiate the you know those two

35:16 individuals um well then we start to look is is there enmeshment here and so yeah the the uh wanting to take credit for kids successes as as if they're your own you know i think the mom makes one comment today of like scholar today un secretary general tomorrow you know like she already has it planned out of like what her successes are gonna be and um and so you can kind of see like that to me would indicate like oh she's she is taking on may lynn's stuff as her own and so that that would to me would say okay there's there's some potential enmeshment there. And you see it throughout the movie as well, like enmeshment there, characterized typically by a total lack of boundaries or very blurred boundaries.

36:03 So even simple things that I've noticed that I noticed as I was watching the movie again was there's this scene where may who's 13 also going through puberty developing crushes and you know romantic attraction and she starts kind of doodling in her notebook of the the little the cute guy at the the daisy mart and uh she like her mom her mom's here's her mom coming and so she drops the notebook or whatever you know um but the mom coming in without knocking you know just assuming oh yeah this is my room too essentially like i can just come in here whenever i want And so there's not really a boundary there. And then immediately taking the notebook when she sees it and looking through a private notebook of her daughters as well. So you see later in the movie, too, she goes under the bed and is looking around and finds all this stuff about the panda, you know, later. And so those were examples to me of a potentially enmeshed relationship where there's really not any clear boundaries there. What? could a parent do in those situations so that there is less enmeshment with that how should a parent approach some of those situations yeah you know i mean super super simply the opposite would be knock on the door um ask you know or have a conversation at least before looking through certain things because i mean as a parent too it's still your job to protect your kids and you definitely want to do it you don't want to

37:33 be an absent parent and totally let them have free reign either so the um there's this book and i'm blanking on the name but it's uh oh the author is dr lisa demore but she talks i love the way that she talks about parenting teenage girls specifically and that when they do get to become an adolescent it's like things that they used to like to do or things that they still like to do that they would do with their door open now they like to just have it close now they like just having that sense of privacy you know and so being able to just recognize that that's normal that's normal in your your kid to have that autonomy that we were talking about and want that independence and have some of the stuff that's just theirs um having some conversations about that of of you know, negotiating, hey, I'm going to knock on the door before I come in. If I don't hear you respond or anything, I'm going to come in because I want to make sure you're safe and everything's okay. You know, but you can always contract for that ahead of time and just have open and transparent communication about that. I think that's almost everything can go better if there's transparency and there's a willingness to just have some conversation about it. and being willing to invite your teenager to the table to have a conversation because they're not a little kid anymore. They're not a young child where you really have to do everything for them. And just knowing where they're at in their phase of development, they want that autonomy.

38:56 They want to be able to share their opinions and their thoughts too. How do we as parents create the environment to do that? Now, I could definitely be wrong on this, and I'm going to certainly accept that I might be. One of the things that I've been thinking about a lot lately is I think it really ties into this idea of autonomy, which is one of the things that my generation is perhaps complaining a lot about is that the younger generation, not millennials, but I guess, is it Xennials that's after that? Whatever. Yeah, Gen Z. Yeah, Gen Zs, that they won't take responsibility or that they don't take things seriously enough or that they're too entitled. At the same time, I think my generation and maybe I'm kind of Gen X, maybe I'm a little millennial, but Gen X more of like, you know, the 40s and 50s now that have raised their kids have really like continued to be a crux to their kids over time and continue to do everything for them or always bail them out or always want to do everything for them.

40:03 And taking away, and it's with their consent probably, but like take away their autonomy. And yet we complain that kids aren't more autonomous and take responsibility. We're kind of creating that to some degree by not saying like, okay, go do your thing. Have your autonomy, especially as they get in their late teens and then they're in their early 20s. And yet we still, my generation still, I'm going to bring you on back. Let me do everything for you. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And I don't know that I have all the answers, but it's certainly, I would agree. I've seen that and I've had. multiple conversations with other people about that same thing of the differences in parenting, just generationally, how we're seeing that, you know, positively I've seen one thing, this study was on millennials specifically, but this, you know, this particular study showed that millennial fathers are much more involved in their kid's life than prior generations. You know, I certainly feel that I'm part of the millennial generation and that's one of the highlights.

41:01 of my life is being able to be a part of my kids' lives, you know, and I admittedly, I work with families and I teach people how to recognize enmeshment or, you know, when we're not allowing autonomy. And I'm sure that's something that I'm going to continue to struggle with outside of the therapy arena when it's my own personal kids and I'm a parent, I'm not their therapist. It is a struggle. One interesting note I had on that too is I think, again, My school of thought, just according to Mitch, but the role that technology has also played in that as well. You know, I used to run a group for teenagers on healthy technology usage. And it doesn't mean no technology at all. It just means how do we use this actually as a tool and so that it doesn't become something that we're overusing or addicted to potentially.

41:50 And one of the things that we talk about is younger generations. What was the ticket to freedom? Getting your license. Oh, it's huge. I can go drive. I can just go. I remember getting my license being like, I don't have anywhere that I have to go, but I want any reason to go. I mean, especially early on. My mom needed something from the grocery store. Yeah, I'll go do it. I just want to drive my car. I just want to go out. But you're seeing in younger generations, Gen Z specifically and younger, there's less interest in getting a driver's license. People are waiting. until they're 18 or sometimes even later to get a driver's license. There's less interest in dating and romantic relationships in person. There's still, there's a lot more online dating. And so this, this stuff about being able to go out and experience the world and get out of the house, you know, you dream about these dreams that prior generations would have to get out of the cave, so to speak, is one of the terminologies I would use. But with technology, there's access to everything everywhere all of the time. To quote Bo Burnham's special, he has a song, anything and everything all of the time. You can get anything and everything you want all of the time through the internet and through technology. And so I don't even have to go out. I can just access it right here on my computer. And that's what we're seeing a lot too with these younger generations of their home more. And then I think it almost creates maybe this cyclical pattern of parents wanting to be more involved to either help. push them along

43:22 or guide them even more with, with that. But, but we're definitely also seeing developmental delays with, with younger generations as well. Things that people were doing by 25 career family moving out, you know, that's getting pushed back further and further. Yeah, for sure. So when we, when we take a look at what Malin is experiencing and she initially starts becoming the red Panda. Yeah. So talk to me about what that really represents and, you know, what the implications are for our kids as they're going into their teenage years and what they're experiencing so that we can try to understand them better. Yeah, well, you know, I think the interpretation that I had from that was I think there's this piece of it of she is becoming an adolescent now and she's having these different things. pop up for her thoughts, feelings, experiences that are in direct contradiction of what she's been taught by her parents and especially her mom, right? Growing up. And it was okay up until now. And now her body's changing. I think the panda's partially a metaphor for puberty and just going through puberty and all of those changes as well. But I think it also represents some of those suppressed thoughts and feelings that Malin is interpreting as like, oh, and she's learning based off of the little, relationship feedback that she's getting from her mom. I can't share this thought

44:52 or feeling because it's going to make my mom sad or it's going to hurt her somehow. And so she ends up just suppressing it, maybe writing things in her private journals, right? Having a different outlet for it. But eventually, and I think if I'm remembering the movie right, it's after the mom finds the journal. takes her down to the daisy mart i just think about how humiliating this would be as a teenager um and goes and is you know interrogating the the kid at the counter and then throws down the drawings that that may did in her her little journal and just yeah that would shatter my world as an adolescent right i mean as an adolescent your world is so social it's so built around your social life i think about like a junior high high school that is your life. Like there's not really much outside of family and then high school and what's going on there. You know, you almost can't even fathom what outside of high school and past high school even look like. And so I think that's what it's representing is this, this, this biological psychological change that may is going through and trying to learn how to navigate that within herself, within her school and friend community. And then how does she navigate that at home? Within her home dynamics as well and learning. Oh these two things are in conflict with each other I met as a result I'm having internal conflict and I don't really know how to navigate this so it stays stuck inside Eventually explodes after that that Daisy Mart

46:25 incident with the Panda that that next morning Yeah, you know one of the things that you brought up is is really the importance of the friendships the social friendships that you have during that time and One of the things I thought interesting here was after she starts becoming the Red Panda, she has to find a way to kind of find, I don't know, equanimity, so to speak, right? She's got to find a way to calm herself down. Ends up being memories that she has with her friends, not... Her mom and her dad. Right. And she hides that from her mom and dad because she knows it would crush her mom. Yeah. And in reality, like that friend relationship, those three friends she had were very, very important to her. Yeah. So she's suppressing that like, yeah, can't tell my mom. Can't be honest because it'll crush her knowing that really my friends help calm me down.

47:12 Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, you see that conflict, too, where mom, you know, I think it's Miriam that she doesn't approve of, mom doesn't approve of, you know. And, yeah, Mae doesn't really know how to navigate that and say, well, this is somebody I really care about and that I'm connected to. For you, what do you see as the importance of quality friendships for kids in their teens going through junior high and high school? Oh, man, I think it's, I think it's. I don't think it's an understatement to say that it's essential. I think it's essential that they have that peer support and that they do start to experience connection outside of the home. And it's hard. You know, I think, again, go back to my own kids. My kids are little right now, like five, three, and we have an eight month old. And I think about when they get to that point right now, they're so excited to see me when I get home and just like. I'm their world and it's the best feeling, you know, and then, but I know that it's not going to always be that way and it's not supposed to always be that way either. And so I know that's going to be hard is just personally, I think it's hard for most parents, but I think it is, is crucial because they are learning to how to navigate the world, navigate school responsibilities, taking those school responsibility on more. just on their own as they, especially as they get closer to like preparing for college, you know, the academics are really up to them. Nobody, whether they get an A or whether they get an F doesn't really impact the parent's career, right? It's not,

48:44 it's not the parents. And that's another thing parents need to remember too, is it's not my, it's not my career, right? I need to differentiate here. I want them to do well. I really want them to do well, but it's also not mine. And how do I learn to take a step back from that? And their successes and failures are their own. That's really hard. Very hard. You know, for me, education always super important. Yeah. My dad was a school teacher for me. Getting higher education was always super important. I got good grades because I wanted to. Yeah. You know, and so I think with my kids, my oldest, he just school is not important to him. Yeah, it's just not. And, you know, I've tried like, OK, do I just. Do I just be super strict about him sitting down and doing homework every day after school? Do I just be really exacting that way? Sure. Or do I take a different approach and just try to find ways to guide him? And I've got to have some standard, right? I can't have him fail out of school. I need to have him graduate.

49:43 But it's been this really difficult thing. And it's interesting because part of my take with him is he really just wants to be done with school and wants to start working. Okay. That's not so bad. Right. Like, okay. Yeah. I'm like, okay. He wants to, he wants to be an entrepreneur. He wants to run a business. He, um, he kind of has a mind that way. And I've, I've had to come around to the fact that like, look, higher education is probably not going to be his thing. And that's okay. Cause that's what he's choosing. Totally. Now, how can I support him in those choices that he's going to make? But it's hard. Oh, it's very hard. Yeah. It's very hard. So yeah, I, um, I can't remember the original question now, but we were, yeah, with social relationships and just how important that is, as they go and do that, if they're doing that from a place where they are operating alone and they're feeling loneliness, loneliness is a significant factor in mental health conditions, right? And so if they're feeling, I have no support, going to school is miserable for me because I have nobody that I connect with. no teachers, no kids or anything, that's going to be really impactful on their mental and emotional health. And so, you know, I think about going to school. I remember ninth grade, kind of similar to you, something just switched in me. And I was like, oh, I really want to go to college. And I was like, I really want to get good grades to be able to do that.

51:11 And so there was that internal motivation and autonomy. I didn't even need my parents to like tell me, no, you need to get good grades. I understood that. And I wanted to do that. But a huge part, even then, knowing that that was my goal from the outset as a freshman, I would still say most of the time in the day -to -day, why I went to school was to see my friends. I wanted to hang out with them. Totally. They were going to be there anyways. If I didn't go, what was I going to do? And I mean, I'm generally pretty extroverted. I like hanging out with people and talking to people. And so that's where I wanted to be. I wanted to be there with them. And I know if I didn't have that social group, it probably would have been a lot different experience. I think that's right. My best friend, he was only a year younger than me, but two years younger in school.

51:55 And he's smart. He's really, honestly, a lot smarter than me in a lot of things. But for him, it was a little bit more social. And so when our group of friends, we hung out all the time. We saw each other at school all the time. We did plays together. Once a lot of us graduated, and then he was still there. He was like, nah. this is for the birds yeah this is for the birds and he didn't end up graduating oh wow yeah he i mean he went and got his gd then he went and did college then he joined the sheriff's office he's now a lieutenant in the sheriff's office he's he's one of their main trainers like he's a brilliant dude like he he reads all the time he loves history right like super smart guy but the social part of it was really like really really important and when that wasn't there when his support went away yeah Then it was like, okay, this is not going to work out. And yet, like, I mean, he's still been successful. I wouldn't tell anybody, like, drop out of school, right, at all. But I do think it highlights, like, the importance of what those social relationships are, that our kids do need to have friends. And we want to encourage them to have, like, good friends, obviously. Yeah, absolutely. But those are really important relationships. Yeah, absolutely.

53:08 So when we, again, look at this idea of the red panda, right? Yeah. Um, you know, what lessons are there for us from learning? Like once may started to figure out how to deal with having the, the red Panda and then to have it go away, but then having to decide that she want to keep this red Panda with her all the time or not. Yeah. Cause the women, um, in their family were. ultimately like suppressing it and putting it in a little trinket right so that it can't ever come out it's always going to be there locked away yeah and she makes this choice of like i'm not going to do that yeah i'm going to allow this red panda to be part of me totally right so what are the lessons that we can pull from that and the way that she was navigating that yeah so as i was watching it that was something that stood out to me too right here's like we're talking about family systems we're dealing with generations family systems operating. And so we're seeing these three generations from the grandma to the mom to May. And I'm sure it even predated that. The way they make it sound is like this is an ongoing history for a long, long time. And that's something to be aware of as well as the generational impact as well. And that's almost instilled into our DNA as well, which is pretty crazy to think about. And so, yeah, there's that natural piece of her but may ends up being the the person that that breaks that by saying no i want to accept this part of myself as a part of who i am um you know and

54:40 talking with with families like really to be the difference to break pat generational patterns is it yeah it takes someone being willing to say i want to do it different and i'm going to do it different and i'm going to go against what my you know programming would be and what I've learned. And that is super anxiety provoking and super scary. Most people will choose familiarity over functionality. I'm going to choose what's familiar that that feels safer to me than choosing what's a little bit more functional because it was coming out in these ways. I would say that we're pretty dysfunctional in their family systems. Yeah. Um, but yeah, her, her making that decision to do it differently. You even see the scariness of it at the end when they kind of do the. uh the ritual or whatever at the uh the big stadium at the big concert right and all of her you know aunts and uh and grandmas and this is another thing on the connection piece of it i i feel like there was this big wall or this gap of connection between may and her mom and you see it in in her mom and her grandma you know yes that generational you know she's like how could she talk to her mother that way and then she's like ming it's your mother And she's like, I'm not here. And, you know, she hides. And so but there's this disconnect in this this to me, a loss of opportunity for genuine connection that can happen when we acknowledge and accept every single part of ourself.

56:11 And so in that scene at the end, when you see them, yeah, you know, breaking open their their. little trinkets and things that were holding that panda that part of themselves that's the time you see them the most connected out of the whole whole movie and that really stood out to me it's like that that connection there the whole family connecting through that um it's also interesting to me to see how big mom's panda was to me that's an indication of like how much she had suppressed yeah and going through and then you get that brief picture of her as a child and that inner child piece of it and what her experience was and you and and may gets this opportunity which how cool would it kind of be to see your parents at that age right we just kind of always view our parents as being adults like they never were kids and stuff and so she gets that opportunity to see that um but as they're they're they're now kind of finished with the ritual may's the only one keeping the panda everyone else kind of goes back out the little portal thing um Mesa's something along the lines of like, although she wants to keep the panda, but I'm afraid it means that I'm going to lose you, you know? And I think that's where the enmeshment piece of it becomes really difficult to break is it's associated with, I'm going to lose this relationship if I try to set a boundary, you know, but she finally opens up about that and has, you know, gets to the core of, I think what, what. Her worst fear would be is if I set a boundary with you and tell you really how I feel, you're not going to love me anymore or you're going to reject

57:42 me or I'm not going to have my mom. Yeah. The dad in those moments towards the end says something I think really profound, right, as he decides to weigh in. And one of the things he said is people have all kinds of sides to them and some sides are messy. The point isn't to push the bad stuff away. It's to make room for it. live with it so it was interesting you know his this take he's taking because it's like okay you have these these emotions you have these things that are tough and difficult and uh maybe mom doesn't like but like hey look it's part of who you are we're gonna we're gonna make room for it and we're gonna we're gonna live with these things because then you don't have to be suppressing who you are all the time Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's great. I think that's probably what a teenager in that situation, that's exactly what they need to hear, especially from their parents. And then they can really feel like confident and trusted, like, Oh, I can, I can, this part of me is okay. You're telling me that you accept me this way, you know? And I think that's where she starts to develop a little bit more confidence and, and being willing to share that with her mom as well. She was getting it from dad. And one of the things, you know, within family systems is everyone's trying to achieve balance, you know, divorced family systems married family systems everyone just naturally kind of wants to achieve this balance um because that's what feels the most calming for our nervous systems right and i think you see that with the mom and the dad right like mom i would say you know pretty high in neuroticism and and you know very very

59:15 achievement oriented focus just really wound tight where dad is the opposite of that and i think you act i think that Disney did a great job showing that relationship because I think it's actually really common that you have one parent who's really that way and you have one who's a little bit more lax. And on a subconscious level or maybe a conscious level, it's to achieve balance, to keep things balanced in a relationship dynamic. That's so interesting. And I think maybe that's why a lot of times you find that. Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. So as we kind of... wrap up about turning red before we jump to our, uh, or this or that or epifier segments, what, what's kind of your overall kind of takeaway from turning red that, you know, people can kind of learn from what, what's, uh, what are some of the most important things that, that you think people should know? Well, yeah, I'd say the, uh, kind of my mind, the way my mind organized this was like on the family level, the parent level and the individual level. And so on the family level, it's exactly what I was just saying is an understanding that within a relationship system and especially within families, everyone kind of naturally gravitates to their role within the family. And a lot of times that's subconscious.

1:00:27 Sometimes I can be conscious, but subconsciously it's because it's. we're trying to achieve balance and feel, just keep things flowing, keep things functional, right? But what happens is that can lead to patterns of enmeshment or something like that, where it's actually not functional, but it's familiar and it helps me feel calm and it helps you feel calm. So we'll just kind of go this way with how we're doing things. But I like to frame it that way when I'm working with families as well, to kind of take some of the blame. out of it of like, oh, you're doing this, so I have to do this. Because if we have this understanding of we're operating from this place of we all just want to feel balanced and feel like things are functioning smoothly, then we can know, oh, this is a system and we're just reacting the way that we feel like we need to. One of my favorite quotes is, if you're not... aware of your system, then you're just reacting to your system. And so increasing that awareness of what's going on, I think really helps take some of the harshness or the criticism that we could potentially throw at family members and lay the groundwork for having an honest conversation. So that's the first thing I would say is like from the family perspective, from the parent perspective, there's this really great book by Dr. Dan Siegel called Parenting from the Inside Out. And it's one I recommend to parents all the time because essentially what he's talking about is Do your own work so that you can be a more effective parent. There's certain things, like if you went through a really hard time as a 13 -year -old, when your kid's 13, you're probably going to get more triggered about different things that are going on. Like

1:01:59 if you were, let's say socially you didn't have very many friends at school, and then your 13 -year -old gets rejected at school. That's probably going to bring up some big things for you. I'm sure. And so just knowing that about yourself so that you're not being reactive in that parent child relationship as well. So that's the other thing I would say or take away to have his parent from the inside out, recognize what your triggers are, potentially even go to therapy, explore that a little bit more if it may be beneficial for you. And then lastly, on the individual level is kind of. what we see at the end of the movie, this integration, that quote that the dad says. And I think, and then may, I think ends the movie with like, we have these messy, loud parts of ourselves. I let it out. What about you? And it kind of ends with this challenge of, are you going to do the same thing? Right. And I think it's great because it invites the audience to reflect on what messy and loud parts of myself, which are totally acceptable. I can have all of these parts of myself. Am I not letting out?

1:03:01 Which parts of those am I just holding on to? And am I willing to take the step to maybe let those out? And that's what I love about the integration of it and seeing her successfully integrate the panda into her life and the benefits that she gets from that, from being sincere, from being honest, from being vulnerable, you know, to talk about like Brene Brown, like the thing that's the most connecting is vulnerability. with people. And so being able to talk about those messy and loud parts, except those, those parts of yourself, those, those would be the three takeaways I would say. Fabulous. Love it. Okay. So let's jump into a real quick, uh, this or that segment. Okay. So it's just which you prefer, right? This or that. Okay. Here we go. Red Panda or Snow Leopard.

1:03:44 Red Panda. Okay. They're actually really cute. Yeah. They're pretty small. Yeah. They're actually like super cute. Um, You have to dig deep. I don't know if you're going to know these ones, but Four Town or Powerline. Do you know Powerline? I don't know if I know Powerline. Goofy movie. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Powerline's from the Goofy movie, right? Four Town from Red Panda, Powerline from Goofy movie. Well, you just reminded me of that. I'll have to do Powerline because that brings up a lot of nostalgia for me. I'm a very nostalgic person, too, so I love reminiscing and thinking about things like that. So, yeah, Powerline. Eye to Eye, right? That's the song from Powerline. Yes. Oh, it's so good. I just listened to it this morning, actually. I'm going to go listen to that right now. That's why I came up. I was like, oh, let's just listen to this. That's a great song. Playing an instrument or playing sports? Playing sports. You know, I love music and I wish that I would have learned how to play an instrument more. But I ended up playing sports growing up. So I'll go playing sports. Same, same. Cooking a nice dish or grilling?

1:04:46 I mean, going back to our conversation before the podcast, I'd have to say. grilling yeah i thought you might yeah i thought you might but i was like i'm gonna still challenge it we're supposed to see maybe he's an amazing cook as well in addition to grilling no no fortunately my wife is an amazing cook so she compensates for my limitations there and uh usually i'm the one on the grill yeah i rarely cook yeah i i grill and smoke yeah And that's like my jam find me as well. And for me, it's smoking because, well, I'm over 40 and I'm told that like once you're 40, you start smoking meats and you really care about taking care of your lawn and what it looks like. I'm like, yeah, guilty and guilty. That's what I've done. So I'll own it. Um, late night talk or early morning walk. Oh man. Phase of life thing. If you were to ask me that as a. Teenager and college student, I'd say late night talk, but now early morning walk. Early morning is now my favorite time of day. I love that. Getting up when no one's awake and just kind of having that quietness and stillness before the day starts. Yeah, early morning walk for me. Same. That's my jam. Night at the movies or a concert? Oh, wow. That's really tough. Really tough because I love movies and I also love concerts.

1:06:01 I'll probably have to say movies. I end up doing that. that more uh who's going to go into the movies yeah going to movies so fun there's something there's a buzz about going to it with other people, the shared experience you have and the smell of the popcorn. Yeah, it's visceral. I'm such a movie guy. Yeah, experience, love it. I love movies. Disneyland or Disney World? Disneyland. Yeah, I think Disneyland. You said you're a nostalgia guy, so I was thinking probably there. You grew up in, I mean, it was Northern California, right, for the most part, but I imagine you've probably been to Disneyland more times than Disney World. Yeah, a lot easier to get to for sure, and yeah, Disneyland is like. I remember watching the Disneyland documentary on Disney plus two and just the whole creation of it and everything. And I was like, this is so cool to me, you know? So yeah. I love me some Disneyland. Okay. Here's our rapid fire.

1:06:47 Okay. Okay. Favorite Disney movie. Probably pirates of the Caribbean. Oh, and the first one, I take it. Yes. I mean, Curse of Black Pearl is so good. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's incredible. Like it came out. It was just like a revelation. Like this thing is unbelievable. Yeah. And it's so quotable. I mean, so quotable. The soundtrack is amazing. Yeah. You know, I mean, there's a lot of Disney movies that I like. And that's I probably have a lot of favorites, to be honest with you. But that was the one that popped up first. Pirates is so good. Favorite Disney song. Probably It's a Small World. Really? Yeah. I think about Disneyland, some of my first times going there and just like being at the park. I don't know why, but that's a memory that I have from the first time I ever went to Disneyland is hearing that song and going on the ride. There must be something about it.

1:07:37 I've had somebody else tell me that was their favorite Disney song as well. Yeah. And my wife loves It's a Small World. She loves going. We always have to go every time. Yeah. And I'll be honest, I could do without. I'm like, take it or leave it. Like if I have to go sit through it, I guess I will. I'll use it for like a nap during the middle of the day. Right. Cause it's just nice little shirt. Right. But some people love the smart world and you're one of them. So I like it. Yeah. Again, more nostalgic factor. But the thing I love about Disneyland too, is that. I just love that there's Disney music playing and you can just be like, oh, this is from that movie. Oh, this is from that movie. Or even if you don't know what it's from, it still just adds to the experience. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, they cure the experience from the front entrance to the end of the night. Favorite Disney princess?

1:08:21 Ooh, probably... Oh, man, that's tough. Probably say Belle. Belle. She's a good one. She's a good one. That's a pretty popular pick. Yeah, I've always been more into brunettes than balloons. That's why. Favorite Disney villain? Captain Hook. Probably. Also goes into, I love Robin Williams. I was going to ask if it was the version of Captain Hook. Yeah, Dustin Hoffman. Yes. Yeah, it's so good. Dustin Hoffman is amazing as Captain Hook. Yeah, he does so good with that. And my kids recently. started watching Peter Pan for the first time not too long ago. And it's just so fun. Have you, have you taken them to Disneyland and gone on the Peter Pan ride? Yes, we have.

1:09:11 Well, not my youngest, the baby we haven't yet, but the other two. Yeah, we did. That's a huge nostalgia ride. Yeah. Like it is such a popular in fantasy land. It's by far the most popular ride in fantasy land. Like everybody wants to go on Peter Pan. Yeah. You check the wait time. Yeah. Sometimes it's super long. Yeah. Favorite food? Just food in general? In general. Oh, man, probably pizza. I love pizza. Pizza's so good. What about favorite food at Disneyland? Oh, favorite food at Disneyland. Um, certain things I always got to get are a turkey leg. Usually we'll get myself a turkey leg just to kind of walk around and eat, you know, walk around this giant piece of meat. Exactly. I think the first time I ever actually had a turkey leg was at Epcot and it changed my life. So from there on out, yeah, you're a loyalist. You get the turkey leg, but I love it. Also then follow it up with like a little, uh, Mickey mouse ice cream bar thing for dessert. Yeah, absolutely. Nice way to polish it off. Favorite ride at Disney? Any Disney park.

1:10:11 Probably also Pirates of the Caribbean. Again, not that it's the most exhilarating ride. I mean, it has the drops at the beginning and whatnot, but the aesthetics and the experience and then how they integrated the movies into it now, too. I remember going to a pre -movie, you know, and then they... Yeah, obviously brought in Jack Sparrow and everything. So it's fun. It's just a classic. It's one where, you know, if I had to pick just one ride to go to while I was at Disneyland, I'd say, okay, well, let's do Pirates. That's the one that I'll do. I have to go on Pirates when I go. It's like a must -do. And the last one here is favorite parenting tip. Favorite parenting tip, I mean, kind of ties into what my takeaway was, is parenting from the inside out. And maybe another way I would say that is increasing your distress tolerance to throw in a clinical term, like your ability to tolerate when your kid is going through something difficult or brings up emotions from you, your ability to just sit in that and to tolerate and not be reactive. If you can learn how to do that, you're really setting yourself up to successfully have some conversations and help your... help model for your kid, for your teen, how to handle things appropriately and maturely. Yeah. It's a great one, Mitch. Thank you. Thanks Ryan. Yeah.

1:11:31 This was super fun. I was super excited when you, when you asked me to come on. So thanks for having me. It was a blast. Thank you so much. As you leave this conversation, remember that yes, the past can hurt and you can either run from it or you can learn from it. So here's to learning and finding joy in the journey. See you real soon.