The Great Mouse Detective and Leading Without Ego | Marianne Johansen on Authentic Leadership

0:00 I will tell you, I got tricked into going into administration. It was never in my game plan. You got tricked? Who tricked you? A week later, the world shut down and I was a first year principal trying to figure out how to like make people wear masks and do contact tracing. And it was, it was crazy. It was crazy. And I was also pregnant with my first child. Dr. Watson and Sherlock Holmes do find this way to really counterbalance. Everybody sees. Columns is a brilliant guy, but in reality, he had to have the grounding nature of Dr. Watson to really be able to make it work. I think ego gets in the way and we try to call ourselves a mouse when we're a rat. If you're a rat, it's okay to be a rat, right? It just is. But sometimes that's hard. Sometimes it's hard to accept our shortcomings. Sometimes it's hard to accept who we are. I wasn't prepared for the level of which parents would push back.

0:57 When I felt like I was trying to help their kid, our scores have increased beyond anything I ever even thought possible. I wouldn't treat them for anything. Welcome to Yes and Land, where we say yes to the reality of yesterday and today. And we say and to the possibility, growth, and imagination of tomorrow. Welcome, everybody, to another episode of Yes, Anlan. We are very excited today to be joined by a bit of a star, I'm going to say, in Jordan School District, amongst the principals in Jordan School District.

1:42 Marianne is well known for her skills in entertainment with students in the past, with, well, really still the students, but in a much broader scale because now she's a principal. And we will hopefully get to hear a little bit of that a little bit later, which is some freestyle rapping. Very excited about this, right? Because Lin -Manuel Miranda is one of my favorites. And boy, that guy can do a freestyle rap. Amen. Like he is incredible at it. So we're very excited to hear a little bit more about Marianne's story of kind of how she got into teaching and education. a story of how she got into administration and to being a principal and we're going to look at a lot of this stuff through the lens of the great mouth detective yes which is um boy it's a little known gem because as i was going back in the annals of my brain i don't think i ever actually watched it before no i don't think i did because like it came out and i would have been relatively young and it didn't do amazing in the box office And so I've actually watched it twice since we first talked. Okay. Because I watched it the first time and I was like, I don't think I saw this. And I was like, okay, now I watch it with my kids now. So now I watch it and I'm like, I actually really like this little flick here. This is a good little gem.

3:00 Yeah. So we're going to be talking about that. And we're going to look at just some life lessons that we can pull from it. Where maybe it'll be lit where you stand. maybe it'll be something different. That's our topic today. We're going to kind of see. We want to kind of see how this plays out, Marianne. So I'm very excited. I'm excited to see how this conversation organically evolves to fit. And I might have to take my notes and just throw them right out. And that's okay. Because we can freestyle the conversation as well. And the rap. And the rap. The rap freestyle probably won't come from me. But it can come from you. As long as I don't have to sing, then maybe it's okay, right? I can, you know, I guess I can rap. I can talk. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I like some of Lin -Manuel's stuff that he's done with Disney, because you're welcome. You don't really have to sing to sing that song, because you can just rap it. And it's just totally fine. I intentionally, when I write my raps that I perform for my kids, I intentionally choose songs where I don't have to worry about the pitch.

3:55 Because although I have a vocal background, it's too much. But I'm trying to spit out all the words, and I usually finish writing it at 1 a .m. the night before. I just thought... that's a component that i don't need to work in and so i intentionally choose songs that are pretty like vocally flat that totally makes sense yeah i uh a number of years ago at a prior job i had tried to write rewrite words that were for this meeting for some of my teammates okay uh with uh a song from tangled and now now the name's escaping me what's the one that she's in the snuggly duckling I've got a dream. I've got a dream. That's what it was. Because, you know, in that one, like, you don't really have to sing, have to sing. Like, you can kind of talk, sing it, you know? So I was like, you know, I could probably make this one happen, right? I'm going to have kind of the gruff voice, right? Yeah.

4:49 So, yeah. So, I mean, I'm with you there. Okay. Parodies are such a great way to, like, teach and get your message across, you know? See, I love this. You're so right. And I've been talking with a number of people recently about how we learn. and how we can make learning more fun and more entertaining. We should. And, you know, we should connect you with too is Dr. Disneyland. Dr. Disneyland, his name is Jeff Barnes. He originated and taught the only course at the collegiate level on the history of Disneyland. And he's all about like finding entertainment in the way that you teach. It's phenomenal. Get connected with him. And I am all for it. I think that there are so many ways that we can make learning more fun. If I had a tagline that I wanted to live and die by, that I would want people to remember me by, it would be that rigor should be fun and fun should be rigorous. And that's kind of the mantra that I embrace at my school is that, you know. Einstein actually said, creativity is intelligence having fun. My favorite Einstein quote. That's a good one. So it's a good one. Yeah. But yes, when kids are engaged and having fun, they are learning more and at higher levels. What's your opinion about, which I think we're going to vary.

6:17 I know, we're already. So what's your opinion about attention span? A lot of people are saying right now that kids have. worse attention spans that's what they're saying people think it and some of the studies aren't necessarily backing that up but i want to see i want to hear what your opinion is about kids attention because you're seeing kids yeah every single day and how how that attention span plays into their ability to learn in school right what's your what's your take um again it's are you prepared and is your content interesting to kids. Kids can pay attention. I think this gets blamed on video games and YouTube. But if you think about it, kids will play the same video game for hours and hours and hours. It's not the attention span that's the issue. It's what they're interested in is shifting. I have a lot of areas that I could grow professionally and in every area of my life, but I I can command a group of 350 kids for 45 minutes without any problem. It's an entertainment component, right? I'm sticking it in front of adults and it's an entirely different story.

7:34 But if you want me to entertain kids, we had the national chair of the art council visit my school from Washington, D .C. this year. And we had, it was kind of a last minute thing. We prepped this whole assembly. And she was at an event up at the Capitol and wound up being delayed by, like, 25 minutes. We had to postpone the assembly. The kids were sitting there. They were waiting. It was packed. It was May. It was the end of the year. You know what I mean? Like, it was zero issues. Like, you know, I stood up. I told some jokes. We, like, talked a little bit. Like, kids can do it. They can do it. You have to make them want to. Yeah. Which that I think has been a little bit of a mind shift, right? I think there was a time where you were just expected to sit in your desk and be quiet.

8:27 And those days are definitely gone. For sure. But you can get kids' attention for a long time if you do it the right way. That's exactly right. You know, it's interesting that you've keyed off on that. I was just listening to some material by Adam Grant. I love it. okay he's amazing right he's very research -based like he's going to pull in studies and pull in research and he has very strong opinions about this and uh what his opinions are based in the research is that when you look at adults and children's attention spans from 30 years ago 20 years ago 10 years ago and now it's not actually any different it hasn't gotten worse it's just what keeps them entertained for longer Because he brought exactly the thing that you did. If a kid can sit there and play a video game for 14 hours straight, we don't have an attention span problem. That's not the problem. If a kid can binge a season of Netflix that's 10 episodes long and watch the entire thing in one sitting, we don't have an attention span problem. We have an entertainment problem.

9:29 What's going to keep their attention? And that does up the ante a little bit. It may be a little bit harder to keep their attention. But I like what you said, right? Like it's fun is rigorous. Rigorous is fun and fun is rigorous. Fun should be rigor and rigor should be fun. Yeah. And so it takes effort to get there. But it's, I mean, it isn't easy. You definitely have clearly a natural ability, right? To entertain kids for that long. Some people have to work at it a little bit more like, but they should. Yes. Because we need to keep their attention. I love this. And they deserve that. They do. They deserve to be taught in a way that they can learn. Yeah. Yeah. So interesting. Okay. Okay. So that was a fun detour. That was. You might take a few more though. We used to do a whole different podcast just on my philosophy of like arts and education and how we can help kids learn. Well, I think we're going to pull something into that.

10:16 Okay. I think we are. I would love that. So let's go to your background. Yeah. So you get into education. Was that something that you always wanted to do? Was it something you fell into? Like, tell me about that journey to getting to be an educator. It was something I always wanted to do. I dabbled in some other ideas. I was like, maybe child psychology. There was marine biologists for a little bit. I think every kid goes through that. If you go to SeaWorld. A little George Costanza? Yeah. And then there was architecture. Art Mandalay. All right, here we go. We're aging ourselves a little bit. We're 90s kids, clearly.

11:00 No, I think. I just don't ever know that I thought there was a different option. I think I thought, well, I can be a teacher. I can be a nurse. My mom was a nurse, is a nurse. Which is a noble profession. And she's amazing at it. She's very good at it. I didn't like blood and was more on the queasy side. So I was like, that's not for me. That's not my thing. And so, yeah, I think too, I just, and this is kind of where I think. I really started to connect with this movie on a different level when I was watching it again through this lens is that our things don't always work out the way that they're supposed to, but you lift where you stand and you do what you can with the resources that you have and you connect with your people and things work out for the best. And so I, I think in my head, I mean, I grew up in Magna and I think in my very naive brain I was like yeah you know we'll graduate from college and then I'll teach for a couple of years and then I'm like gonna stay home and and get married and have seven kids and like raise all of them to be amazing humans and that's gonna be my life and so I don't think I ever considered it as a long -term profession I never saw myself being in this career for a long period of time and so Yeah, after I had been teaching for a couple of years, I started

12:32 to think, well, there's a whole world of opportunity out there. I don't know why I never explored it before, but I want to explore it now. And so I did. I decided I was going to go to law school and went down that path. And that didn't work out. And, you know, I didn't meet my husband until I was 29. And I could not be more grateful that my life has turned out the way it has. Which is very normal. Very normal. Except in Utah, not as normal. But actually, I met my wife when she was 29, and she had never been married. Oh, really? Oh, that's fun. Absolutely. Okay. I know, right? I know. You guys need to, like, get connected, right? Yeah, we need to be friends. Yeah. So when you were originally kind of deciding this education thing, was it that you knew you wanted to do elementary? You did elementary school?

13:20 Or did you do something else? I did elementary school, although when I first decided I was going to go into teaching, My first declared major was actually a math teacher, a high school math teacher. Oh, you like math? No, I don't. Oh, well, actually, maybe that helps. Yeah, math was difficult for me. Yeah, so that's probably why you'd be a good teacher. And yes, and that is what my AP statistics teacher told me when she was convincing me to. become a math teacher is you know i said i'm not good at this this is a struggle for me and she said that's why you'd be good at teaching it because you get why kids don't get it um and so that's kind of where i started and then where did you do your undergrad uh utah state oh like the place to go for uh education especially elementary education where my sister went oh and it's like good for her super it is yes it's i mean like top west of the mississippi even um so yeah in fact i also did my my graduate degree there so i double dipped what was your graduate degree in uh uh educational leadership okay yeah amazing yes and that in and of itself like i will tell i will tell you i got tricked into going to into administration it was never in my game plan you got tricked who tricked you yes which is kind of part of the story that is um thinking about jumping into today so i so so let's let's take a pause yeah okay give us the synopsis of the

14:51 great mouse detective because i'm guessing we're going to layer in some stuff and because the great mouse detective came out a little while ago and maybe not everybody's seen it no we're going to rely on the synopsis so i am okay buckled up i'm ready to go yeah it's a very fringe disney movie yes um but my kids love it which is kind of why we decided on this show because it's it's lesser known and my five and three -year -old are obsessed with it and it deserves some attention 100 it does um so it's basically disney's spin on um sherlock holmes and so it's placed in 1886 england and you have a toy maker and his daughter who are just hoping to celebrate her birthday quietly in their little toy shop and they are interrupted by um the antagonist or i guess the antagonist uh page boy who uh comes to kidnap the toy maker for some nefarious plans that uh radigan is the the moriarty of the story and he has some various plans that he is putting into motion and this very astute and tenacious daughter who was left behind in this toy shop um finds an article about this detective basil of baker street right solves all the mysteries and he's brilliant and so this little you know

16:24 she can't be more than five or six um this little girl just takes off and and goes in search and i mean she's a mouse right so the great mouse detective so they're all they're all mice and rodents in the movie um and they're all most of them in this are mice the little page boy meaning he's like a bat right and then rat again is a rat and that's a thing He's mad about being a mouse. He wants to be a mouse. That's right. He has a complex about being a mouse. Totally has this complex. It makes everybody lie about it. Yes. Makes everyone call him a mouse. Yes. And then she finds Basil of Baker Street and on the way meets Dr. Watson. She actually gets lost and is unsuccessful in finding and tracking down Basil of Baker Street. Runs into Dr. Watson and he helps her and they find him. you know, convince him is a strong word. He doesn't want to help. He doesn't want to help at all, right?

17:23 No. In fact, he's like very much trying to brush her off and is not interested in her lost father. Until she mentions the bat. Yeah. And then he all of a sudden realizes that, oh, this could be an avenue in which I can finally beat Rattigan. Yes. And so then he's all in. and he's like fully committed but he doesn't want the girl to come so he tries to leave her behind and she is not one to be waylaid by intelligent detectives so she um insists on accompanying him and he gives in um but then they go on this adventure where they're trying to like track down this rat and they're essentially just trying to interrupt his plans or um ultimately you find out later in the movie um kidnapping the queen of england who i mean the time period and everything it's supposed to be queen victoria right and it's her diamond jubilee and so they're kidnapping her and replacing her with a toy version hence the reason he needs the toy maker i mean spoiler alerts we don't we're not worried about so to create this toy it's an animatronic toy essentially that he can use to make it sound like the queen of england is giving all of her power and signing over her job to him and letting him run the country

18:55 and he has all of these um evil ideas you know or how he would run the country but he just he's power hungry and he just wants to be in charge and so um it's just kind of how they eventually you know succeed in this plan and of course they all live happily ever after because it's a disney of course that's that's the way it has to work right which is good it's a great synopsis and as we as we go there's a couple of quotes from it that that i'll plot at times uh to ask you about because there's some really interesting things that happen along that path that i think play into this this idea that we're going to talk about lifting where you stand um playing your roles but also accepting when other people are and what that means so it'll be fun okay it'll be fun okay so now back to your story yes so you go to utah state you end up also doing graduate degree and then you get tricked and to become an administrator. So tell me more about that. So I had been teaching, I taught fifth and sixth grade. My first teaching job, oddly enough, was PE, which I graduated from college and then I actually served an LDS mission in Taiwan. And when I came back, it was January.

20:14 It was the middle of the school year. The only teaching job available is PE. So I'm like, I can do that. And again, it was never my plan. but that's where i taught that's where i learned to entertain kids that's where i learned to master my classroom management and it's really where i learned to integrate um because i really wanted i was at a title in school so a very low income school and i just really wanted to help i wanted to feel like i was helping with the academic components and so um they would come to me and it was it was also a win -win right we would play you know you get out those little scooters and they'd have like this the squishy foam balls or whatever and i put up goals and and we'd play these games but you want to work on passing and you want to work on teamwork and you want to work on sportsmanship and so i would shoot the rules of the game to okay it's five points when you score a goal but you get three points every time you pass the ball before you score so every like continual so if you pass it five times and then you score a goal your team just earned 20 points right and so then they were more inclined to pass the ball but i also made them keep track of points while they were passing so then you know i have third graders who are counting by threes which is part of their curriculum and so um i just really wanted to maximize their time with me and make sure that we were using it well and uh you know it was never my plan but it really kind of jump -started my teaching

21:49 career into what it evolved into. So then I taught fifth and sixth grade for a few years, and then my school district started this program where they wanted to have teachers go and teach art, music, dance, drama to kids throughout the district. And so I got really excited. i'm a pianist i've taken piano lessons since i was five i took them until i became an administrator and so um my piano teacher is my second mom so shout out to cindy lambert she will always be cindy lambert so near and dear to my heart um and and like i said i also have some vocal training and so i applied for this job and was hired and i just fell in love with it it was like all of the best parts of teaching and none of the bad parts of teaching. And so I would go, I had four different schools and each day of the week I'd show up at my school and I'd have kids for 45 minutes and I would do these lessons where again. I wanted to feel like I was contributing to their academic success. And so everything I taught was integrated.

22:52 And we, you know, it might be math, it might be language arts, it might be whatever, science, but it was all integrated. And I did that for a year. And after my first year, our supervisor asked if I would take over leading that charge. And so essentially managing the program. And so I, of course, agreed. And I moved into my little district office cubicle. And I still got to teach three days a week. And then I had two days at the district office to mentor and coach and run the program. And so I would set up our master schedule. And when teachers were struggling, I would go out and help with them. And every Friday, I had to put together a three -hour professional development to help make sure that my teachers were doing the best job that they could do. um i loved it it was like so fun and so after about a year of this my boss said people who work in my department have master's degrees and i said it's always been on my radar i just can't decide on which one i want and she said you need to get an administration because it opens the most doors and i said okay like that that makes sense it does um and she said plus like i think i think it would be good for what you're doing right like you're essentially she kept telling me you're just you're already doing the job you're already doing that gotcha and so i was like yeah i love this so i went into administration and she just

24:23 kept saying like you're doing it you're doing it you're doing it and so she convinced me to apply to the admin pool and i was hired keeping in mind my entire experience was elementary And I was hired to be an assistant principal at junior high. And you're the living daylights out of me. It's challenging. Like I can do this. Yeah. No, I love this. I love it. And like the first week of that job, I was like, why have I done? This is so hard. And I hated it. It was so difficult.

25:05 My boss, oddly enough, retired. the same time that I left the district office to go out and do admin work. And she called me like in October and she said, so how's it going? And I said, it's really hard. I mean, I didn't want to be a total baby about it. So I just said, you know, it's really, really hard. And she said, oh, I know I hated being a principal. It was the worst job I ever had. And I said, what, why did you do it? do it and she just laughed and she said oh I knew it would be good for you and I knew you'd be good at it you needed to do this and I was so mad at her I was so mad at her I was like I had this job that I loved it was the perfect fit for me I was doing everything I possibly could have wanted and you convinced me to come do this thing that is awful like all i do is like break up fights and take away marijuana and call angry parents and like deal with teachers who are annoyed like there is nothing fun about this so um but we powered through and i did that job for three years and i cried at least once a week bless my husband's heart i mean we were fairly newlywed at that point um during that during that time what was what was the hardest thing the conflict okay i tend to be like a very positive person i don't like conflicts um i wasn't prepared for the level of like the minutes which

26:42 parents would push back when i felt like i was trying to help their kid Um, the first time I called a parent because I found marijuana in her child's backpack, um, and had talked to him and he had broken down and told me that he was feeling depressed. And that was the only thing that helped. And, you know, um, and I called the mom and just said, Hey, you just found marijuana in your son's backpack. And she immediately was just like, how do you know it's his, you don't know that it's, I mean, she's got very defensive. And I said, he admitted to me that it was his. really struggling with depression and like really has a hard time. And I said, I need you to come down and give him. And she was like, I'm at work. I can't come get him, call somebody else. And I was just like, and I'm sitting there thinking if someone had called my mom when I was in junior high and told her that they found marijuana in my backpack, it would have been a very different experience. Right. Um, but I was, I was dealing with, um, people who were carrying things that I knew nothing about and I was not prepared for the level of emotion and anger. that came with that um and i was also wholly unprepared for the awful things that kids both experience and get into at that age um and it was very eye -opening yeah yeah what was what was the the way through what got you through that when you're experiencing these really hard things um i mean there would be these fleeting moments right where i would build these relationships with kids and that

28:13 was the one part i did like about it um is i would see kids in the hallway crying or i would just know that they were having these struggles and i did to some degree have the time to like bring them in my office and have a real conversation about it you don't have that luxury when you're a teacher right there are 30 other kids who need your attention right then and so um i remember it was the first day of school and i was walking down the hall and i just saw this poor little seventh grader with like tears streaming down his cheeks and i just said we went into my office and he just cried and he was like i'm so scared i miss elementary school you know and i was like oh i can i can really kind of dig down and and help kids on a different level and in a different way than i was trying to help them when i was a classroom teacher yeah what do you what do you feel like your your biggest takeaways were in growth that you experienced in that that provided you a better baseline for when you became a principal yeah um i just think realizing i think teenagers get a bad rap yeah and i think that um i went in there thinking like they're all they're all just kind of like jerks and they all do whatever they want and i learned that they're such babies like they're so little and they're putting on these like tough fronts but really they just

29:43 they just want to be loved and most of the kids that are causing them really hard things don't feel loved um or have had life experiences that have really kicked them into survival mode and they don't know what else to do um and so i just learned to listen and not jump to conclusions um and to just really love them in a different way and at a different level and now when i see teenagers like you know on the streets or at the movies like i'm just like hey what's up and usually they're very friendly like they can look really tough but they're usually very friendly I love them. I think a lot of it too is just if you bring the assumption that they're going to be terrible and bad and you bring that to the interaction, it's going to be in part of self -fulfilling prophecy because you're going to bring that kind of energy to the conversation as well. So you did that for three years. And then what was the next step? And then I was appointed to be a principal. I got appointed at a board meeting on like March, I don't know, 7th, 8th, somewhere in there of 2020. Oh, no way. Yeah.

30:59 Holy Toledo. We were just starting to hit it at that point. It was like a week before the world shut down. And so, I mean, right, you finish out your year. So I was finishing the year at the junior high before I really jumped into this. And yeah, a week later, the world shut down. And I was a first year principal trying to figure out how to like make people wear masks and do contact tracing. And it was. it was crazy. It was crazy. Where was that first gig? Um, and I was also pregnant with my first child. Oh man. So yeah, that is complex. Yes. Which again, back to my best laid plans. Right. So, okay. The plan was to like get married and have a million kids.

31:49 And then I got married at 29 and I'm sorry. I got married at 31. We met at 29. And, um, after I did my first year at the junior high, which was really an intern year, right. I was like, okay, I get through this. Like we're going to have baby I'll quit. And then like, we didn't have baby. And again, looking back, like the junior high was not the right time for me. Like I've, I've rarely ate. There's just too much going on. Um, I think trying to like successfully complete a pregnancy. being a junior high assistant principal like shout out to anyone that's done it i don't know how you could possibly like the level of stress the level of everything else so um it was again not my plan but it that's how that's how the cookie crumbled and it all worked out um so yeah i was pregnant with my first child and was sick the entire nine months um and i'm like a first year principal trying to figure this out there was only one other person in my entire district that was a first year principal that same year and so i mean we really kind of leaned happily on each other um but that was i mean it was wild yeah it was wild because there's not nobody could prepare you for that because no one had ever experienced that before so it's not like you could go lean on somebody else that could help you navigate it they're just trying to figure it out too it's so hard yeah And I mean, everybody had different ideas. It was just, it was a very, it was crazy. How long did you need to be in that school? Just that one year.

33:20 Just that one year. So again, like your best laid plans, which is funny because at the very beginning of the movie, like I said, as I was watching it through this lens, Dr. Watson, when it introduces him, he's like riding, he's like basically riding the rails, but in a carriage, right? Because he's a mouse. you see like the people that are driving in the people carriage and he's like on some little i don't know something that swings underneath the carriage and he's he's narrating the movie right and so he's like i just finished you know service and this and the her majesty 66th regimen and i was just coming back and he doesn't use the word deployment but essentially that's what he's coming yeah and he's like i'm just looking to find some quiet and a peaceful place where i can just you know do my own thing and he had these these plans and then he runs into this little girl and gets thrown into this adventure like he didn't mean to and so i again remember i hate administration like it's not it's not fun and so when i um found out i was pregnant with my daughter i was like sweet this might take it out of dodge like nobody is going to judge me if i walk away from this profession to raise my baby Um, and that was like, I was just like, no, I'm going to quit.

34:42 And this is how I get out. Um, and then I started talking and I was like, I mean, I already have like, you know, 12 years in a profession that offers pensions. Um, and so I said, I just want to be able to at least keep my foot in the door. Maybe I should look at a halftime. contract somewhere well the school district i was in at the time didn't offer half -time administrative contracts but the neighboring school district did and so i submitted an application there really kind of thinking i was still just going to quit and stay home but i thought well like it'll be an option i just like to keep all the options open so i submitted my application and had my first interview and found out in said interview that they were opening an art integration magnet school and in in my in the district i was currently working in they have administrators for those types of schools slated out a year or two in advance and so i had zero expectation that there would be an administrative position available at this school um but i thought if maybe i got really really lucky i could be like a half -time assistant principal to supplement something there you know be involved in some way And what I didn't know behind the scenes is that one of my mentors, one of my main mentors, who had also oddly enough been my eighth grade history teacher in administration, was good friends with the superintendent. And

36:15 I had no idea of any of this, but the superintendent called his friend and was like, hey, we just interviewed somebody from your school district who has an arts background. So tell me more about this connection. What are the names of these folks? Okay, so Bill Kenley. Okay. um was my eighth grade history teacher and then in the school district i was in um his his entire job he was the director of talent development so he recruited Potential administrators. Got it. You went through like a year, they called it the Emerging Leader Academy. So you went through a year of like evening classes, trainings where he would kind of, you know, build you up and get you ready to apply. And then once you were in, you had monthly meetings with him and his counterpart to like make sure that you were being supported and trained. I love that. Before we jump back in, can I ask you a quick favor? If you're enjoying the journey so far, will you like, rate, and subscribe to our show. It helps us reach more people like you. We can design and create and build the most wonderful place in the world, but it takes people to make the dream a reality. and so and i had no idea that he even knew anyone in jordan district um but he and the superintendent were college roommates and so oh is this is this dr godfrey okay do

37:46 you know my connection to dr godfrey no i don't he was my eighth grade english teacher stop he absolutely was Like eighth grade was a big year because I had him as an English teacher. Okay. And then my history teacher was Mr. Coyle. Okay. And he had me do a mock trial and had me assigned as an attorney. And that is the reason I became an attorney. So eighth grade was a big year for me. And I still obviously have a good relationship with Dr. Godfrey. He's amazing. He is amazing. So he connects with Bill. Calls Bill and is like, hey, I just interviewed somebody and I had told nobody. and granted that i was even interviewed because i didn't yeah you know and so was bill like what are you doing bill calls me and i'm like where's bill camden calling me at 5 30 in the evening so i pick it up you know and he's just like so i know someone in jordan who mentioned the day and i and i start panicking oh yeah because i'm like who else knows who else knows he's like i really don't think anyone else knows and he didn't mention that the friend that he knew in jordan was the super like he didn't say anything no he left that out and so he said so just tell me i'm just trying to help you figure out like what you want you know i obviously i love granite but i just want people to be happy and so i just said bill i i'm expecting a baby i'm just trying to figure out what my life looks like and um he just kind of said so would you be interested in being connected to this art school? And I

39:19 said, a hundred percent. I said, I know they probably already have their principal figured out, but if there's an AP position, you know, and he just said, okay, so that would, that would be like your favorite choice. And I said, for sure. And so in my second interview, that was when I mentioned the halftime thing. And they all kind of looked surprised. And I was like, you do offer halftime contracts, right? And they all just kind of said, yeah, no, we do. and what i didn't know is that they were already talking about offering me the position as the principal um and so in talking with bill he didn't tell me anything but he was just kind of like i think you need to be honest if you're really interested in this art school i think you need to be honest and so i called um who is now my boss her name is lisa and just said you know i know i said i was looking for half time i'm really looking for the right fit and Um, I mean, long story shorter, I guess, cause it's not short at this point, but they ended up offering me this position as the principal at this arts integration magnet school. And I just felt like it merged everything that I had ever wanted. Um, when I called my husband, I said, I, I feel like this is weird because I've just, I've tried to leave education so many times. Like I've, I tried to leave when I was like, going to law school i'm trying to leave now and i just feel like it's not the right

40:52 thing for me um and then i told him i said they offered me the art school and he was just like you have talked about opening an art school since i met you you would be crazy to turn this down um so you know we thought about it for a few days but he was just like you you need to do this and so we're starting our sixth year um but even after i had my baby I was wholly unprepared for how difficult it would be to leave her. And so as my starting date loomed closer and closer, I just started thinking, how can I gracefully get out of this position that I have committed to? Like, how can I not do this job? Because I loved Granite. I loved being there. I knew everybody. I was friends with everybody. And I knew no one in Jordan. I didn't know a soul.

41:45 And that was a really scary leap for me. And I didn't want to. And I just kept thinking, I just want to quit. And I just want to stay home with my baby. I didn't know what I was going to do for childcare. Three weeks before I went back to work, my mom had a neighbor who had a daughter with severe disabilities. When she was born, they told her she wouldn't live past the age of two. And she died at the age of 44. And her mom had cared for her all of these years. And after she passed away, she said to my mom, what's Marianne doing with her baby? And my mom said, she doesn't know. And she said, I need somebody to take care of. And so my child care fell into place, right? And so then I was like, okay, I can't blame it on child care. So it's all of these things. And I'm a very creative person. And I could not think of a way to get out of this job. So I started it. I ended up loving it. It's still really difficult. I tell my boss all the time, if they move me, then I'll just resign because I, in fact, still don't love being principal. It's still a lot of conflict.

42:55 It's still a lot of hard conversations that keep me up at night and I stress about them and I worry about them. And I would be wholly unsuccessful at this job if I didn't work with the team that I do. But it's, again, a Title I school, very low income. Our scores have increased beyond anything I ever even thought possible. Our kids are learning. Our kids are happy. They're doing well. We're not perfect. But it is so invigorating to be part of something that really feels like it matters. And to be working with people who have different skills. And just like in the movie, right? it was funny you talked about attention spans because i have never seen someone with worse adhd than basil of baker street like he is oh yeah he's all over the place yeah and that is me right like i tell people all the time like this job will give you adhd whether you had it or not before you started it will give you adhd because there are always a million problems that you're juggling um and so as i'm watching it i'm like that's that's me like i'm that guy i'm like all over the place you think i'm not paying attention but then like i'll have observations but also like nothing is organized like i rely on my team for that my team executes so many things um but yeah so when you when you think about that with um like the the moving when we look at the dynamic that they had right with basil and him kind of being over the map and

44:25 him really needing um is it is it it's a take on watson right i'm trying to think what the is this his name yeah dr dawson awesome dr doctor right dr dawson doing that and then uh the little girl olivia right in in reality like the three of them together what make it happen uh basil could not have done it on his own and i do think it's a fun dynamic to see throughout all of sherlock holmes lore right that like dr watson and sherlock holmes do find this way to really counterbalance everybody sees Columns is a brilliant guy, but in reality, like he had to have the grounding nature of Dr. Watson to really be able to make it work. For you, you go, you step into this position in this, this, I mean, really kind of ideal situation, right? With being in our school.

45:12 How was it difficult at all for you to find a way to trust your team to be able to offload things onto them? Did you feel like you had to hang on to things at first before you could? At first, at first, um, some things know, right. I have an instructional coach who, um, knows more about teaching kids to read than I will ever know. And so things like that, um, not at all. My other instructional coach is just, she's. an incredible executor and so sometimes i didn't even know i was delegating things to her i would like we would be meeting and i would say wouldn't it be cool if like this happened and the next thing i know she's created wouldn't it be cool if and she's like here's the system here's how it's gonna work and i would just kind of be like the thing that's been tricky for me is to um let go early enough coming full circle uh letting go of discipline has been really difficult for me. Letting my assistant principals take over discipline is really hard for me because I got so good at it. And so while I've had amazing assistant principals, that's one that's really difficult for me, especially if I have a relationship with the kid, right? Imagine your child does something dumb, like letting your neighbor handle that. that's that's some control that's difficult to let go of it's tough how have you navigated that is it because you know i think what's interesting about um schools and school districts and administration

46:45 is there's lots of parallels to just business in general because the reality is in your role where you're needing to do certain things and have a certain role and needing to delegate that to other people there's tons of similarities when i look at pretty much any business, the owner of the business versus the people they're putting in place to help run certain things in the business. How have you navigated that when you do need to just trust them to go do it, but at times knowing you need to step in and coach them more and help them. So you don't go take over, right? Because that would be bad. Right. But then to coach them and know when to coach them in the right moments, when to coach or when just to let it happen. Yeah. And that's a very nuanced thing, especially when you're dealing with people's children. Oh, right. Especially when you're dealing with parents who may know me. Right. And now all of a sudden, like my assistant principal is calling them and they're new to the building or they don't have that previous relationship. And, you know, I've had. i've had assistant principals that were brand brand new that i've trained that's a little easier because then i can model the the strategies that i like and i can model that for them and then do a slow release um when i've had people who are a little bit more seasoned and and had kind of their own styles um i've just been really fortunate that they've all been really good so while it's difficult

48:15 to let go um i have been able to like sometimes i have to just like ring my finger fingers under the table so i don't jump in right um but watch and then afterwards just kind of say i maybe would have said that or i maybe you know like just just a heads up i know you don't know this background about this student but you know yeah it's interesting as you're talking about that like we've got great attorneys here very very good uh practitioners I get referrals. I've been doing this a long time. So I'll get referrals. I don't do cases anymore. So my job is to manage the firm, drive cases here, run all the business operations side of things. When I do get referrals, I have to give those to somebody else. And sometimes it's somebody that I know very, very well. And when people reach out and say like, oh, this isn't going well. it's really easy for me to be like, oh, okay, well, let me tell you exactly what is happening here. Let me tell you the advice about this case. Let me tell you how this should work. I'm going to tell you about this commissioner and I'm going to tell you about opposing counsel.

49:19 But if I do that, then I've really harmed my attorney's ability to execute on their job. And I've had to learn that the hard way because I've messed up sometimes, right? Or I have like, oh, it's just so easy because I know this about this case or about this court, right? um but taking the extra time to then talk to my team and say hey help me understand what's going on here let me give you some background knowledge kind of like you just indicated it goes a long way into building my trust with my team yeah like okay ryan's gonna have him back he's not gonna cut me out uh you're not gonna cut my knees out from underneath me right with a client because that's bad he's gonna like come and talk to me about it and then allow me to do to my job and it's it's hard because it's hard to like let that go sometimes because like I know this person.

50:05 I brought them in. Like, that's really hard. But it's so much better if you can do it effectively. I'm going to read you a quote, okay? You ready for this? This is not going to be a general one. Do you know who John Maxwell is? John C. Maxwell? He's an author, written a ton of books, public speaker. He's just amazing in the leadership space. Like, he is amazing. And one of the things he said, this is a very small quote from his book called The 17 Indisputable Laws of Teamwork. He said, one is too small a number to achieve greatness. And so how have you seen that be true? Because you said you love your team. How have you seen that be true for you guys to accomplish what you want to at your school? Oh, that is a really good question. And I love that you said that because sometimes, and I don't think anyone has any kind of ill intent when they do this, but because I'm the principal. people tend to bring those compliments of like, oh, your school is doing so well. You're doing such a great job.

51:05 And I don't know how to diffuse that enough, right? I think people think I'm just like false humility when I'm like, no, it's my team. It is really my team. Like there, I could not go to another school and replicate what I am doing. And what's unique about my team right now is our skill sets are also very different. and um my assistant principal could not be more different from me um but we also could not be better teammates like i love her and when you're aligned on the purpose when you're aligned in the mission um then it's a lot easier to understand like hey we are we're aligned we're trying to accomplish the same thing maybe we go about different ways we may have disagreements but if we have mission alignment now it's easier to weather that storm So let's contrast that for a second with Rattigan.

52:01 So tell me where you think it comes from with Rattigan to try to tell everybody that he's a mouse and that he refuses to acknowledge that he's a rat even though it's in his name, right? And then one guy who accidentally calls him a rat gets fed that they can't. Now this obviously sounds like an extreme example, right? But like in what ways is that really emblematic sometimes of mistakes that leaders make? Ooh, that's a really good point. Yeah, I need a backstory on Radigan, right? Yeah. That would be so cute. Prequel here. Because up to this point, every character, like their best laid plans have been interrupted, right? Even Flavisham, the toy maker.

52:47 there's there's no mom in this story and olivia is upfront about that because basil is like just go ask your mom to find him and she's like i don't i don't have a mom right so that wasn't in their plan um basil helping this little girl like when he's not really a kid person like that wasn't in his plan dr watson getting her up into this dr dawson getting her up that wasn't in his plan um and you can tell that somewhere along the way like radigan's best laid plans also interrupted yeah like he's clearly not a happy human um and i think it speaks so much to how we respond when like controversy and adversity he even says i wrote this down um he's doing like a little monologue when he's first introduced he sings a really great song too by the way um but he he wallows in his self -described he says like i have experienced so much adversity um but this you know i overcame it and that's why i'm powerful and that's why i'm so great and so um i think it's very telling that he has this complex about being a rat he doesn't love himself he doesn't love who he is um he's chosen to take the adversity and blame it on other people i also think it's interesting when he does at the point in the movie where he captures basil and he's you know he's tricked him into his trap um he tears down basil in such

54:23 a way that like it guts basil right he's and i'm just watching this and i'm watching him like berate him and cut down every part of him that he knows really matters to basil um as as a true bully would yeah and i was watching that thinking somebody did that to him yeah or he believed that about himself and he thinks the only way to fix it is to become powerful and power is never satiated and so he can't get enough um so it's interesting he's projecting yes he's projecting his own insecurities onto basil so that he can try to feel more powerful yes i tear you down because it helps me feel better about who i am and even though i'm telling you you're a fool and you're not a great detective and you're not that smart like those are my fears but i'm saying out loud but that's thinking about you and i think when when people are not in the best version of themselves when they're not self -aware of things they have, then I think ego gets in the way and we try to call ourselves a mouse when we're a rat. And it's okay to be a rat.

55:38 Right? If you're a rat, it's okay to be a rat, right? It just is. But sometimes that's hard. Sometimes it's hard to accept our shortcomings. Sometimes it's hard to accept who we are. Sometimes it's hard to find the authenticity that exists. But when you can, right, then Basil and Dr. Dawson and Olivia and Flaversham, is that? Flaversham. Flaversham. That's right. You say it with a British accent, right? When they do, then much like we're saying, then they can achieve greatness and something actually great can happen, not something horrific and horrible like Radigan's trying to do. Yeah. I think it's really interesting. I was surprised at how much I loved Olivia. Ah, yes. Which you shouldn't be, right? Because you work with little kids. Right. And you have some little kids. And you're like, wait a second. Of course I love Olivia. Yeah. But she is awesome. She really is. And she's smart. And she contributes. And I found it very funny. At one point, they go to a toy shop, right? It's not her dad's toy shop. They go to a, they're chasing the bat because they're trying to find Rattigan. And they know the bat will lead them to Rattigan. And they wind up in this toy shop. And I was watching it. And both Dr. Dawson and Basil are essentially ignoring her, right? They're letting her tag along, but they're not. And I'm thinking, she is the expert in the room right now. This five -year -old knows more about these toys than the two of you could possibly know combined. And

57:09 you're overlooking her. And she, you know, I mean, she's still a kid. She plays with toys and that. causes some consternation for basil of baker street um but ultimately she contributes quite a bit to the success of the story um you know at one point they crash into big ben and um bradigan is about to push basil like down the shaft of big ben and you know she's the one that warns him and i I love her tenacity. I love her, like, I'm not going to take no for an answer.

57:49 And her confidence, right? You juxtapose that with Radigan, who is so insecure. She knows who she is. She also comes from a loving home. But she has a confidence that radiates. It radiates to Dr. Dawson. It radiates to Basil. because she is not willing to give up and because she has the confidence that they can be successful they are successful um even when she's not you know big enough or strong enough and she's a little kid to help in certain ways she never stops trying which i absolutely love about her um you know and connecting that back to like not loving administration I had somebody who told me like a year and a half in just quit.

58:43 Like, it doesn't matter. Just quit. And I wanted to, and I'm really, really glad that I didn't because even though it's like still a very stressful part of my life, the things I have learned and the experiences that I have had, I wouldn't trade them for anything. So I'm going to read you another quote. It's from Jim Collins. Okay. Jim Collins. wrote a book called good to great okay um and in it he talks about level five leaders which are like the ideal type of a leader right so just to give that purpose because it's the quotes about level five leaders it says level five leaders display a powerful mixture of personal humility and indomitable will okay which i think is interesting because we talk about juxtaposition right things that may seemingly be the opposite Kind of like what we're about here in yes and land, right?

59:41 Yes. And yes, you can be humble and you can also have an indomitable will. How do you see that having played a role in your leadership in the school you're in? I love that. That's such a good question. When I got to my school, we were in what we call TSI, targeted school improvement. And essentially, it means that our school had been performing in the bottom 5 % of schools in the state. And if you are in TSI for more than three years, then you shift into what they call continuous school improvement, which essentially means the state comes in and takes over your building. They tell you what you can and can't do. They come in and do a full evaluation of everybody. It's intense. Nobody likes that. And after my second year there, we were staring down that barrel of like, if we can't get our scores up, we're going to be in big trouble. Now, to be clear, like half the schools in my district, you can be in TSI for any number of categories.

1:00:54 if if your low income kids are in the bottom five percent then you can be in tsi if your um english learners are in the bottom five percent you can be in tsi if you're low in or when you said low income um if you're special ed students like so there are all of these categories so like most schools like many schools i should say will find themselves like designated in tsi at one point or another um and especially title one title one it's like very common to be in tsi um it's also very difficult to get out of tsi like it's it's a heavy heavy left um and i genuinely was like i don't know if we can do this but i also knew we didn't have any other choice and so like we rallied as a team and we accessed all of our resources we met with our district data scientists we um we signed up for every like training we possibly could um we i mean we were all in we were committed and it was a team effort so i had like 12 people on this team that we were like we're gonna make this happen um and we blew it and everyone was surprised right nobody saw that coming like not

1:02:24 the district um i remember very distinctly the faculty meeting where i like stood up and was just crying and i was like we did it we did it we did it um the cool thing about that though is that we have stayed out like it's one thing to get out it's even more difficult to stay out um and i think that this component of like we are not going to do that again like we're not going to find ourselves in that situation um has definitely been something that has has become kind of a core value of our school yeah um i'm also very good at and that is one of my strengths on our team right i am good at not taking over an answer and finding ways to get things done um whether that be like finding funding or like i'm a good networker and so like i do think that that is a component that i bring to the table so um it's it's interesting that you say that and i have i have one dream that i have yet to achieve but i like mark my words i'm gonna make this happen well let's hear it i want to take my kids to disneyland right you haven't taken disneyland yet no no not my personal children Like my students at my school. Like a certain select number? Or like, can you tell me more?

1:03:52 So Mike Haynes, who is our mutual connection, the director of the foundation, he and I have had many conversations about, you know, one thing that keeps kids in poverty is a lack of experiences. Most kids who grow up in the poverty cycle don't go without or like they don't leave a five mile radius of where they grow up. And so like one of my core things that I do for my kids, I really try to provide experiences for them so they know how to think outside the box, right? Like they need to know what options are out there. And having a connection, my current assistant principal grew up in extreme poverty. She grew up in Compton.

1:04:33 And she said that when she was in eighth grade, like something, they got to go to Maui. I don't know how that happened. That must have been. a different time um but she said i remember going to maui with my school group and i thought to myself i am coming back here one day and you know she like her older brother was gang involved like she all the odds were stacked against her but because of that field trip she was like i am going to college and i'm going to have a career and i am going to be able to afford to go to maui on vacation so that's kind of my thing is like i like to provide experiences for my kids because i want them to have those things um and being an art school we have a full functioning band right they're quite good like i know you don't you wouldn't think an elementary band is like fun to listen to but they really are fun like they're good um okay Just for a little fun?

1:05:30 Yeah. Okay. We'll do this or that. Okay. And then we'll do that. Okay. And, you know, if at some point in time during any of this you decide to bust out a rap, girl, we're over here for it. Okay. I don't know how to take it up for you well, but, like, don't be shy, okay? Okay. Okay, so here's our this or that. Basil or Dr. Dawson? Ooh. Ooh, that's so hard. I'm going to say Dr. Dawson. I love a reporter. I love somebody who doesn't need the glory. I love somebody who is just like, I am going to contribute what I know how to contribute, but I'm not going to be loud about it. Before, when I was writing this, 100 % I was Basil. And throughout this conversation, you talked about the things that he was doing, especially like... recognizing that olivia could contribute and then he's helping to make this stuff happen and then the support that he's giving my answer changed like it's dr dawson for me too uh yeah he's fantastic okay big ben or buckingham palace oh buckingham palace i mean the magical you know there's something about a palace yeah that's for sure london fog or a clear london night oh as much as i like love a good view like fog is so iconic to london

1:07:01 and like it's so mysterious and just have such i think i have to go with fog wait um okay a detective hat otherwise known as a a deer stalker i had to look it up okay deer stalker or trucker hat oh deer stalker okay yeah Recess duty or lunch duty? Ooh, recess duty. I love to be outside with the kids. I'm sure. I was just talking about being a PE teacher. I was like, oh, this is probably an easy one for you. Field trip or surprise assembly? Ooh, that's a good one. Like, I love working in a good assembly, but I'm going to have to go with field trip because of the experience component. Like, there are things that I can't do in an assembly that a field trip can do. Yeah, totally fair. Okay, now this one might be real controversial. So let's throw this out there, all right? Everybody buckle up. Everybody has strong opinions on this one too. I know, but I've seen it. Whiteboard or chalkboard? Ooh.

1:08:05 Okay, whiteboard is way more functional. Chalkboard is just so classic. And there's something about that feeling of like brushing the chalk off between your hands. But, you know, if I'm looking at what's best for kids. whiteboard okay whiteboard every time yeah whiteboards are way easier and better let's go into some uh we're gonna go uh general pop culture okay okay you ready for this yeah hit me up 90s hip -hop or modern hip -hop 90s hip -hop no battle yeah no battle no battle um karaoke or freestyle karaoke uh morning person or night owl oh wolf I'm more of a night owl.

1:08:46 I like to get up early. Like it's satisfying to get up and like get your day going. But I just, I love the quiet of like being the only person awake and doing whatever I want. At night? Okay. See, and what's interesting you say that is to some extent, that's actually why I like super early morning. I like getting up when like the world is not yet awake. It is all to myself. and i can go get in a workout i can go get some work done i'll start doing work um uh and i'll read and it's just like i don't know what it is when i think the rest of the world's not awake i love that time it's for me it's just like i found this early yeah it's just me yeah no which is interesting because i don't normally like being alone like solo travel for the birds I did it, like, really for the first time this last, like, a few months back. Oh, really? It was D .C. before my wife got there, this trip I was on. Okay. Oh, my goodness. No, thank you.

1:09:42 No, thank you. It's horrible. I guess, like, maybe that's got to work out some issues. You didn't share that experience. No, I did Disneyland once by myself when I was studying for the LSAT. So I had, like, a mission, right? So I loved it because I was there by myself, but I was, like, doing something. But, yes, I'm with you there. It's more fun with people. um okay here's a rapid fire okay favorite disney movie cinderella favorite disney song oh okay animated or live action give me both okay so there is a very speaking of fringe disney movies um there is a live action it's not really live it's a it's from like the 60s it's called the happiest millionaire it's leslie ann warren and i can't remember name um they actually star in two disney movies so there's that there's that one and there's the one and only genuine original family band which is probably my favorite like people disney movie um but it's called are we dancing and it's like a it's a very like romance song um but like i love it it's very just pretty and simple and well written so we're gonna have to like Put a link in the descriptions to this episode for this song for people. And I'm going to have to go listen to it right after. I have no idea what this song is. I'm just going to have to totally check it out. Very out there. I love it. Yeah. Favorite Disney princess. Cinderella. Makes sense. That's

1:11:13 her movie. Favorite Disney hero or heroine. Mulan. I get that one a lot. And that's so for me. When I think of a favorite Disney hero, Mulan. All day long. Yeah. She's amazing. Such a good story. I love that movie, too. Totally rewatchable for me. Love it. Favorite ride at Disneyland? Teacups. Teacups? Oh, yeah. Teacups? I haven't gotten that one yet. Teacups. I love those. Is this the nostalgia of it? I think a little bit, yeah. I mean, I do love a good, like, spin. Yeah. But, like, everybody can ride them. Yeah. Yeah, it's probably nostalgia. But, like, no, I love the teacups. I, um, I... teasing my dad a little bit um but i didn't really go on teacups much as a kid because spinning doesn't do well for him makes him feel pretty sick so we didn't really go i always season we never went he's like oh ryan we sometimes went and like it's true sometimes if i was telling me never went like that i never got gone three cups now i know what i want i do enjoy it with the kiddos uh especially when they like want me to spin it real fast yeah so like sit back and it's like have dad spin it yeah it's good favorite Subject to teach. Music.

1:12:26 Shot with a guest after a conversation. Totally makes sense. What we like to end with is three actionable takeaways. Okay. Three things that you would recommend somebody could put into effect today or this week on the topic that we're looking at. One is bring what you have to the table and be confident in what you can bring to the table. But also like you have to work at that, right? Number two, you can't do it by yourself. And you have to choose, you have to have a team. And you have to recognize that the team all pulls equal weight, right? There's not one person who gets to be more important than anybody else.

1:13:15 And I think the third one that I would take away is, When things don't go as planned, there's a good reason for that. And it's going to make sense later on. And just trust the process. Love it. Absolutely fantastic. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. This has been a blast to talk. You've got me super inspired to think about getting majestics. and to Disneyland. That'd be so magical. It would be magical for that to happen for those kids. So stay tuned, everybody. We're gonna see what we can do. Sweet. Thanks. Thanks, guys. As you leave this conversation, remember that yes, the past can hurt and you can either run from it or you can learn from it. So here's to learning and finding joy in the journey. See you real soon.