Tangled - Manipulation vs Influence | with Josh Emfield

0:01 Welcome to Yes and Land, where we say yes to the reality of yesterday and today, and we say and to the possibility, growth, and imagination of tomorrow. All right, my friend. Well, welcome to our next episode of Yes and Land. Very excited today because we have, I think, a very interesting conversation in store. Uh, we've got somebody here, Josh, who is an interrogator for the military, which is pretty cool. Um, and then in addition to that, he also does real estate as a real estate broker. And, uh, you know, what's really interesting about that, I think is just what, uh, what we can learn from him about negotiations, about interactions with people, about, um, one of the topics today, which is manipulation versus influence.

0:54 And if somebody understands those things, it's certainly you with both of these roles that you play. So very excited to jump into conversation with you today. Awesome. I'm glad to be here. And so today what we're going to do as well is we're going to take a journey as we talk about Josh's backstory and some of these topics. We're also going to look at this through the lens of some pretty interesting Disney villains. Uh, mother Gothel and tangled. Uh, and then lady, is it lady Tremaine? Is that the way you say her name and Cinderella? Uh, I think people know her more as the evil stepmother. Yeah. You know, people don't often know what her name was, uh, but she certainly was an evil stepmother. So it'd be really good to inform us, um, on these things and things to look out for and to avoid if we see ourselves starting to dive into those, or we see other people doing those things to us. So, as we jump into that today, the first thing I want to do is kind of talk about your background. Like, where did you come from? How in the world did you become an interrogator for the military and then also real estate? Well, first I came from my mother's womb. Yes, that's very good, right? And you didn't get raised by Mother Gothel, so... No, I wasn't. Actually, not at all. Good there. No manipulation in that case. To win so far. Yeah. So, my backstory is I actually joined the military right after my wife and I got married. How old were you? I think I was like 22. You're a young guy. Pretty young, yeah. And she was even younger. And she looked way younger. Okay, so I gotta tell you this one.

2:24 When we went on our honeymoon, we went to California, where I was born, and I grew up there. We went down there, we checked into the hotel, and they asked to see ID for me and for her. I'm like, why do you need ID? and some guy in the back room, he's just like, are you guys from Utah? I'm like, yeah, they're good. So it was pretty funny. But she still looks young, but she now looks like an adult. I had that with my ex -wife. She looked very young. In fact, after we had gotten married, she got a job at a preschool that was inside of a school, an elementary school. And one time one of the teachers stopped her walking down the hallway because she was wearing a backpack and thought that she was a student at elementary school, right? And she was like 23 at the time. You're like, wow, got mistaken for like an 11 year old. Okay. Yikes. That's a little rough. No, that's great. Yeah. So I ended up joining the military right after we got married a couple months and actually she got pregnant. And then I left her for like, you dirty dog eight months you dirty dog so i left before she had any signs of being pregnant and um everyone in the military was just like you do that on purpose avoid all the emotions um but i got back just like it was like a week and a half or two weeks before my son was born wow just just crazy so i was able to be there for his birth um that's good but yeah so i joined the military um and then i i transferred I was

3:58 an electrician at first, quickly transferred over because I spoke Portuguese, and that's a valued asset there. And I really wanted to be in interrogations, and so I went that direction. What drew you to that? Why did you want to be in interrogations? Well, first, I liked the languages aspect. So all interrogators have to have a language to speak. And I just loved the thought of understanding how the mind works and how relationships and personal interactions come into play. And so it was just super invigorating for me. So I went down that course, did it. And I'll tell you, the first thing I thought when I was doing this course, I thought, this in the wrong hands is a horrible thing. And I was thinking, so many people could use this and take advantage of so many people. And I was thinking mainly for women, too. I'm like, oh my gosh, these guys are going to go and ruin these these girls lives and I'm just thinking it just really brought me down like oh there's a lot of evil in this world and it made me question a lot of things but um and so that's where I think this kind of comes into play is a lot of times when I talk to people and they find out I'm an interrogator they start thinking oh like they're questioning like oh are you gonna just like do stuff to me like what is it you know waterboard me it's nothing like that at all but I'm definitely more perceptive to body language, tonal pitches, word usage,

5:33 and how that all encompasses into communication. And one of the things I actually teach some body language courses, and there's different scientific research that shows different levels, but pretty much it averages around 80 % of communication is actually body language. No kidding. That opens up the door to understand people quite a bit. If you break it down, it's hard for someone to know exactly what things are called, but we just call it the gut feeling, right? And you have a gut feeling because you recognize certain things that people are doing with their body, with their eyes, with their hands, and then you're like, something feels off. It feels off because it is off. It's not natural or it's not normal.

6:21 And that really comes into play with people and they're like, I just don't feel good. Like, something just feels off, but like, they're just so charismatic. Well, most of the people who are manipulators are very charismatic. Yeah, and that's true. And so learning some of these items is very important. Simple things of people hiding their hands or they start covering their mouth like this, it's because they don't trust what's coming out of their own mouth. So slight things you can start to recognize come in hand. So yeah, I've been doing interrogations and crypto -linguistics. So what languages do you speak? You speak English and Portuguese, I heard. Yes, and then Spanish. Now, I don't practice my Spanish very much. I do mess around when I see some of my friends who are from Mexico or from Brazil and they're like, dude, your Spanish is... is wanky. That's because I'm not focusing on focus more on the Portuguese. In fact, my I put my kids in the Portuguese immersion program. So it's been kind of fun. That's awesome. Yeah. So are they are they picking it up pretty well? Yeah, actually, my three boys are doing it. How old are they?

7:32 So I've got a 15, 13, and then almost 11 year olds. Okay. And they like speak it pretty well. Yeah, the older two are pretty good, the younger still learning it. But it was pretty fun. Last summer, I was able to go on a language immersion with them to Portugal. Oh, no kidding. And they hated it because I made them speak Portuguese. Sure. But I was making all the other friends speak it too. I'm like, well, you're out here for immersion. Yeah, that's what we're doing. But I was truly impressed that they could speak it. And I hailed food and money hostage the whole time. I'm like. I don't understand which means I don't understand. They spoke it and then I give them money when they talk to other people and you know in the language it was pretty good.

8:18 I like the way that you but you kind of gamified it right and I think that's fun because ultimately they complained about a little bit but because you gamified it that way probably made it a little bit better it's probably something that I need to do. My daughters are At a Spanish dual immersion. Okay, so my youngest she's she's kindergarten So she's not in it yet should be in next year, but my older daughter of the two She's 10 and she's in fourth grade, but I struggled to get her to speak it to me She's just like too shy or too scared I think I need to gamify it with her a little bit like make it fun make it like here's a incentive reward for doing this with me and um, maybe that's it. This is good. This is making my wheels turn here because like it's fun to speak it with your kid It is it's so fun like when you can actually have a conversation and especially when your wife doesn't understand it the whole way then you can just like say stuff and be like ha ha and she's like what are you saying? Um, but yeah learning another language is, it's very difficult. It's easier for the kids. I actually struggled with it, learning it. First off, I went on a religious mission for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, down to Brazil. And the funny thing about that was, I barely graduated high school. So, I really didn't learn to read until I was like 12. I struggled with dyslexia, ADD, And they even put me in a program called RSP. I think it's called the resource here. Um, but RSP, um, it was, I don't know what it stood for, but all

9:49 I remember is the kids, what they called it was really stupid people. And so that's kind of, that's brutal as a kid. And for something that actually like, I think just really wasn't understood back when, when you and I were growing up, but I just not understood at all that dyslexia, it doesn't mean that you're Dumb or stupid at all. It just means you see things differently and you, so it doesn't look the same way to you. Right. And ADD or ADHD, like those things just cognitively affect your ability to pay attention is to keep attention focused on things. Right. Sitting down in the classroom. That was like, it was brutal killer for me. Right. It's real. My, my, uh, 16 year old is in that right now. He's got, he's got ADHD and it's tough, you know, trying to have him sit down and like pound out homework at the end of the day, like I used to.

10:34 Oh, no, it doesn't work like he's it's like little chunks. He's got to do a little chunk. He's got to take a break He's got to do a little chunk. Take a break. Otherwise, it just it just doesn't work for him But you know, what what do you think that did for you having to experience that? You don't want anybody to have to experience tough things But how do you think that shaped you as you got older where you had to go through those experiences? You know I've kind of looked at this over the years and i've taken the approach is that People have different talents and attributes And you kind of have to hone in on your attributes rather than try to change them. It's figuring how do you use this to an advantage, right? And so for me, I use this advantage because now I had to pay attention a lot more. And I would use that to be very organized. And so that disadvantage, if you want to call it, actually became an advantage for me. and I was very analytical and focused on paying attention. And, you know, to the point where I kind of became obsessive with certain tasks, because I knew if I wasn't hyper -focused on something, I would just lose my mindset. And so, making, coming up with lists, and my wife is just like, you always have to have your list.

11:57 And whether it's vacations or everything else... I, okay, we're gonna have another funny story. So my wife and I are planning vacation. We're going, I think it was down in, um, it was either San Diego or Anaheim, California. We go to the beach. We love the beach. And I literally planned out time. This is my relax, do nothing time because there's nothing worse than me not knowing what's going on. My mind is just like running like, okay, what am I supposed to do? And so my wife is like, you have to Plan when you're not gonna do anything and I'm like, yes I just need to know what I'm doing. If I know I'm doing nothing then I can relax and then she's like you're ridiculous and I embrace it and I embrace that I'm ridiculous Yeah, no, I I'm gonna bit the same way I like to have a plan and so we do go on vacation Especially if my wife's planned a lot of it I was like, okay, what's the plan? What are we doing here?

12:54 Well, we're not doing anything. But what's next? What should I be getting ready for? What do I need to prep for? Mentally, what am I going to get up for? I was going to drive her crazy, but I like to have the idea of what's happening because I don't feel like I can relax otherwise. I feel like I got to be the one that is paying attention to what it is to keep things moving, keep it on a schedule. You work with deadlines. Those are so important. End up you're in the military. You're in linguistics and You wanted to be an interrogator. Yeah, what was it like to actually become one? Like I'm assuming there's some kind of qualification process that you've got to go through to do it Yeah, so you have to have a TS So it's a top secret security clearance, right?

13:38 And then when I did crypto linguistics, you have to get an SCI. So it's just meaning that you can go into their sensitive compartmentalized rooms, where they can look at top secret documents and all that stuff. So you have to have an additional scrutiny on that. The process, though, is it's pretty lengthy when you're getting your top secret security clearance. This is another fun story. So I was going through my initial. Actually, I don't think it's my initial. I think it's my second top secret security clearance. After a few years, you have to renew it and go through background checks. My first experience, I was at UVU, still studying. And then I'm walking out one of my evening classes, and all of a sudden this guy walks up next to me. He's like, follow me. And I'm like, OK. And he's like, don't look at me directly, but I'm with the FBI. I'm here for your safety. And I'm like, OK, yeah. So I walk him. I'm not worried, because I haven't done anything. I just thought it was funny that they get to practice their options there. And he's just like, yeah, so why do you talk to these people? I'm like, well, I was in a mission to Brazil. And yeah, I talked to a lot of foreigners, because they're really worried about your foreign interactions. And so as a missionary, you've got a ton of them. Sure. And even after your mission, you're still talking people. And so that's like a red flag for FBI, NSA, for the military, and your security clearances. So they scrutinize everything from the past 10 years.

15:10 Oh, goodness. So who you talk to on a regular basis, any foreign travel, all of your addresses over the past 10 years, everyone you worked with, your family, where they've lived for the past few years. I mean, it's just the paperwork was like, I want to say like 50 pages of just information of people and and that's the the suckiest part of doing that sure but you know the process can take anywhere from like six months to even longer some people who have married someone in another country it takes like a couple years if they even get it so um that's that process but um that's the biggest step into that and then you have to go through interrogation school which is a A very intense course. And you start early in the morning. You go to lay at night. They put you in stressful situations. And then you have to do a lot of research, figure out how to fill out forms and everything else. Obviously, we can't talk about certain techniques. But then you go and do these interrogations. They go into this booth. And it's all simulated. So you've got someone who's experienced who then takes on a role of a terrorist or anything like that.

16:23 And then you have to practice these techniques without breaking the law of warfare. And so you're like, OK. They drill it into you. It's like, if you break this, you will go to jail. And then you're like, oh, great. I'm not like an attorney. And you have an attorney who comes in, a JAG officer, and it's like, yeah, you will go to jail. And we will prosecute you. Oh, my goodness. So it's like, so the army's against us. You know, Geneva Conventions, all this stuff. They're like, you've got to know it in and out. You can't mean like, to some point, they can't even feel threatened. Like, you have to reassure them that they're like, am I safe? You have to like, oh, yes, you're safe. And I thought that was so interesting that we play by those rules when a lot of other countries, they don't. Russia doesn't. China absolutely doesn't. North Korea doesn't. So here's what's so interesting to me. Like, all the things you're describing is a really intense school with a lot of study, a lot of perfecting something that's very difficult. Not many people can do it. And this is coming from the kid that was in the stupid class, right? Like, yeah, like, I mean, first off, it just goes to show you why sometimes what kids say are just so inappropriate and so damaging and hurtful, but also that, like, that wasn't the case. Just because you had dyslexia and you had ADD, it just meant you needed to find the right way or right vehicle to be able to learn.

17:42 So how did you do that? How did you go from struggling to barely graduate to now you're in this intense program that very few people could complete? Well, I think this comes back to my mission. um i didn't know what an adverb a verb and i knew what a noun was that was like the one thing i knew an adjective all that stuff i had no idea because i barely passed you know me through high school and and honestly a few teachers passed me because they're like all right you know you work hard sure and in fact i was student of the month in one of my math classes but i had the lowest grade because i was just in there trying to figure this out trying so hard yeah and and so when i got my mission communication It was horrible. I'd be speaking, but no one understood a single thing I was saying. They're just like, mm -hmm, mm -hmm, yeah, sure. And it got to the point where even most missionaries will learn the language within four to six months, at least enough to communicate. I was just struggling.

18:42 And so what I did was I said, well, I'm going to have to memorize everything, because this whole structure, sentence, and grammar stuff, I can't figure that out right now. So I had this huge book, a notebook, seriously, like that thick. And I just started going through the words and I would write out the tenses and give examples of sentences. And then I would memorize all those sentences. I'm like, I can memorize something that can say, oh, wait, that's that phrase I can I can use now. Right. It really took me about a year and a half to actually start speaking the language. And then at that point, I learned that I can now go back and now I understood what the phrases were and the meanings were. I'm like, I'm going to start trying to learn grammar. And so then as I started learning Portuguese grammar, I started to understand that's what they meant in English. And so it started to kind of capture.

19:41 But it was, I would spend hours each day. And as I read you know, the Scriptures in both languages, and I did that as well, and it just... I had to just keep working even till, like, after my mission. I kept taking classes, I kept, you know, studying it. My wife was super supportive. I started labeling stuff in the house just to keep my mind going, and I did in Spanish and Portuguese, and... Now I think back, I'm like, wow, she was so supportive, but it's like the fridge. When did you serve a mission? What years? It was 2006 to 2008. Okay, so at that point in time, you guys were doing Preach My Gospel. That's correct.

20:22 So for those of you who don't know, who listen, so missionaries in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, it used to be, back when I served, that you memorized the things that you were going to go teach people, and that's what I had to do. Before we jump back in, can I ask you a quick favor? If you're enjoying the journey so far, will you like, rate, and subscribe to our show? It helps us reach more people like you. We can design and create and build the most wonderful place in the world, but it takes people to make the dream a reality. The memorized discussions were actually great for me. I serve Spanish speaking in Seattle. Yeah, so I was not immersed in the language. I was not speaking it every day I'm trying my best to and like my initial companion was from Guatemala, but had been living in the States But he was like, nope, speak your language.

21:20 Speak your language What he was try to tell me to speak Spanish, but it was hard Yeah, we knocked doors all day and you're speaking English because most of people talk to you. It's English and then here I'm trying to learn it So memorizing the things I was gonna teach just like kind of like you did Well, that was the best thing for me to learn Spanish because then I could draw back on those phrases when things would come up And then I would be like, okay i'm here in this zone i'm talking about like religious words and it's a much more limited thing that i can go and memorize and learn these things and that's how i got by yeah my spanish even now is joking with with one of our employees today who uh she's a native spanish speaker She was like, you don't consider yourself like a dual, dual language. I was like, no, like I like to speak Spanish and I try, but like it's limited. Okay. It's limited and it's fun, but it's very limited.

22:05 I can say that. Right. I remember that little chihuahua and those commercials. It was amazing commercials. So, um, in let's, let's wrap it over to kind of what we're talking about with this topic of what do you learn in going through interrogation school? and these experiences you have about the differences between manipulation and influence, because that's one of the topics we're going to talk about today. How did that inform you in figuring those things out? This is one that I actually honed in on my experience in the military. I got into real estate, but also having worked in, I worked for the US House of Representatives, worked for a couple of congressmen, Jason Chaffetz and John Curtis. And there's a lot of manipulation that goes on there, too.

22:54 Oh, for sure, in politics. Yeah, no question. Absolutely. And I remember one instance I was out in DC, and then a group met with me. And I'm just like, this guy is lying left and right, his body, just everything. I'm just like, oh, just let him believe that he's winning one over. But I'm like, wow, this is just nonstop. So with that experience and in the interrogation training, as I was kind of thinking about this whole scenario, I'm like, Okay, so what what's the what's that boundary because I'm looking at this is between Okay, you know people do sales people, you know, you know influence, right? It's like you're you're helping people well manipulation, it's like You're it's kind of influence, right? And so it took me a couple of years to really figure it out, but I broke it down to Being a one -word differentiator and that was beneficiary so When you're thinking about this, in both cases, you're trying to get someone to do something. When it's influence, you are actually looking out for the interests of the other person. You might benefit from it as well, but you're actually caring and looking out for their best interests. So I look at that as, let's say my son, he wants to become a better wrestler or basketball player, right? I'm going to influence him. to work hard, right? I might get satisfaction of seeing him succeed, right?

24:24 Sure. But I'm trying to help him. Yeah. Versus when you're manipulating someone, you are the beneficiary, not necessarily the other party. And so... At least not the primary focus, right? And the manipulation, the primary driving factor is to benefit yourself. Exactly. And so when you're manipulating someone, it's... a lot of times it's you're trying to get them to do something a lot of times it's with urgency right so they're feeling forced or they're feeling afraid and so you're using emotions you're using emotions on both but you're using detrimental emotions when you're trying to manipulate someone usually it's done with fear and so that's a very common tactic a fear of missing out. It's a fear of what's going to happen to me, a fear of, you know, what will be said about me or my family or whatever else, right? And you see this common in politics. Fear is constantly used. In fact...

25:33 Fear is such a high driver of emotion, right? People... will take action quicker based off of fear than just about any other emotion they experience. Yes. And that's why that's why in the news you see it's like it's fear based like they know it gets views they know it gets clicks on on social media like the fear drives people's actions and emotions. Yes you're absolutely right it's it's quick reaction and the media likes that like you were saying because they can keep your attention and they try to make you irate so that way you're like you oh I've got to see what's going on now so they're using that that fear tactic. Now, fear is not the strongest emotion out there. A lot of people think that it is. It's a quick reaction emotion. Actually, love is a more long -lasting emotion. Fear is actually draining. And so you think about when you watch politics or anything online, the news media, people aren't necessarily feeling like, oh, wow.

26:27 I feel so great. I'm excited to go on and do something else now. They're like, oh, the world's going to end. There's wars everywhere, all sorts of stuff, right? And with love, it's a calm but long lasting. It's like, I feel comfortable. And you know what? I'm energized now. So that's where you kind of think about this, is when you're interacting with people, one of the things that comes into play with Lady Tremaine and Mother Gothel, right? They both used fear. For sure. And they would focus on, there's a few, there's so many, I'm thinking of so many on top of my head right now, but there's a few specific actions that they would use, and they're manipulative, right? So when we talk about, like in the movie Tangled, Mother Gothel, right? There's, there's lots of scenes, but there's a scene when it's mother knows best. Yeah. The song, which is a great song. Can you sing it? Oh, I mean, I can't sing at all. I'm a terrible singer, but that, that song is like, when we first started talking about this and I thought about it, I was like, that song perfectly embodies this idea because it's pure manipulation. Exactly. Like through and through. So, and this is very, very common.

27:50 So What Mother Gothel does is she goes and talks to Rapunzel, right? And Rapunzel's like, hey, I want to share this. Mother knows best. But then she turns it around and makes like, you would do that to me? How could you? I'm now the victim. And people will call that gaslighting, right? So what is gaslighting? The term is misused multiple times. And overused a lot of times, too. Yes. But it's really turning the tension pretty much back on you, and then taking what they're trying to say, and then saying something else to make them feel bad for what they initially wanted to talk about first. So in this case, she's talking about being outside, going outside of the tower, and she's like, no, you'll get hurt. Now we're using the fear. There's so many evil things out there. It's so scary out there.

28:50 Yeah, you can't handle it. Yeah, like you can't with all the men with pointy teeth, right? Oh, it's just gonna be so scary And this is about you, right? I'm trying to protect you Yeah, when in reality, like you said like it wasn't and even even if it's not even a An evil stepmother or evil stepfather, you know whomever it is people can still manipulate and they may not even know that they're doing it, but they're just They want to keep control. It really is about control And so sometimes mothers or fathers or boyfriends or husbands or whatever it is, they're afraid to lose control. And then they start, you know, overly blaming the other party. And so what that does is it creates a desire like, well, I really love this person. I don't want them to hurt.

29:44 And they're like, well, maybe I'm wrong. Right. So you start to have some self -doubt. It's a very, very common tactic used by manipulators. And yeah, I think Mother Gothel, there's so many parts to that whole scene. I mean, she was manipulating everyone, even to like the guards in another scene. She used them to get what she wanted and then betrayed them to then betray the next person, right? And so the thing I would say in that scenario, how do you address someone like that? You really have to kind of come back and say, you ask them a couple of questions and you say, so how does this benefit me? Someone's going to say, well, you know, this is good for you. Like, well, I don't, I, this sounds like it's benefiting you.

30:32 Can you explain further how it benefits me? So now they're having to elaborate. And when someone truly believes something, they, they, or they've already figured something out in their mind. It comes from memory. when someone is lying, it actually is from the creative side of the brain. And so this is where it's different. There'll be a delay. Usually, I mean, there might be a delay response, and people are thinking about stuff. But when you're asking for past memories, if you think they're lying, you just ask them a question that they weren't expecting, and then see how they respond. And they start thinking like, well, like, They're trying to either say something that is not lying, but is misleading, or they're afraid to answer a certain way that would then show that they are lying. So they're trying to manipulate the words in their minds and trying to figure out, OK, how do I say this and make them think something different? There's a lot of ways to say, to get somebody to feel that they are believing what the person is saying.

31:52 I might ask you a question, right? There's a great example of this. I don't know if you remember Anthony Weiner? Yeah. Okay. So he was a congressman. I can't remember of which state. Well, he got caught with some lewd pictures, right? And then people start asking him and then they catch him and they say, Hey, Well, the reporters were asking, yeah, tell us about these these little pictures. Did you receive these little pictures? And he's like, if I'm to be in front of a group and someone's to throw a pie at me, and am I going to respond to them? And then he's like, I'm just asking you, did you or not receive pictures from this young lady? And he's like, again, if I'm to receive, and it just repeats, right? So that's one tactic people will use. They'll repeat the same thing without changing it because they don't want to mess up because they've rehearsed their line.

32:46 Another thing that they'll do is they'll say, like, if I were to ask you a question or ask me any question right now. How's the weather outside? Well, my office is actually pretty warm, so I'm actually not cold at all right now. Oh, that was a non -answer of what I actually asked. Well, see, I answered you, but I didn't answer the question, or I might answer the question half -heartedly. Yeah, or the way that you wanted to. Exactly, because now they're like, oh, oh, I guess, okay, they feel awkward to then question you again the same question. This is very common with kids. Because I wouldn't have. I wouldn't have been like, well... no josh what's the weather like outside i didn't ask what your office was or what you're feeling right now because now i could take offense yeah like i don't want to offend him like he answered the best way he could i'm yeah oh that's so interesting and so kids do this all the time like if you ask your kids and i do this with my my kids and they still the problem is when i call them out they get better so i'm like do i call them out do i not call them out but i'm like did you brush your teeth and they said yes i did okay Today? Yeah.

33:46 Did you brush them just now? Did you brush them long enough? Was it three seconds? Exactly. Did you use toothpaste? And it's like, was it yesterday? All those things, they've gone really good at lying to me. And I'm like, almost proud. But I'm like, I don't know how this can go, right? But yeah, so that's the situation. I think Mother Gothel in Tangled, she gives so many examples. And I would encourage you guys watching, go ahead and watch Tangled again and start looking for symptoms or indicators of her manipulating. Think in your mind, okay, what's she doing to manipulate? As you start to do that, you'll be able to recognize how other people are manipulating you in everyday aspects. Well, I think what's interesting too is people can think about Tangled, be like, well, yeah, I know that Mother Gothel was off and I know that she did, but might not realize the times that she did until you go back and you're like, oh my God. gosh it's right there and and it's right there and it's there again make it a game tally it like wow i think one of the things that she does a lot of in this manipulation is she she works and operates in the shame game she's shaming oh yes you know uh rapunzel all the time and i think there's the one time where she's going to come back up the tower and rapunzel always has to let her hair down and So she does and mother Gothel is basically like, Oh man, it must be really exhausting for you have to do this every day. And you know, let me back up and down. She's like, Oh no, it's no problem mother. Yeah. I don't know why it takes so long.

35:13 Right. You're like, Whoa, like that's messed up. That's manipulation. Right. She was getting Rapunzel to say it was no problem. Like she's manipulating her to say that just so that she could cut her and be like, no, you need to do it faster. You did too slow. You're way too slow. I'm manipulating you. I want you to do it faster. I'm going to shame you for not. Yeah. I mean, that's. and it's sprinkled with all this sweetness to you it's like she says it in a sweet way and really it's like so cutting and so cruel and so harsh yeah and this ties into um lady tremaine i think one of the scenes that i like best again multiple um options there you should watch next both of them next together and see how many you can count um but it's the scene where cinderella's got her dress um and then they start ripping like, pieces off the dress. And what they're trying to do is diminish her sense of significance, right? And make her feel like dirt. You know, Cinderella, I guess, Ash, right? That's what the cinder is. So that's what they're trying to make her feel like she's worth nothing. And that way they can maintain control. And I think this kind of goes back into the military aspect.

36:23 If you're dealing with terrorists, right, they're not usually the nicest people. But what you're trained to look at is like, well, you're dealing with emotions, right? And you can make someone feel like they're worth nothing. You can make them feel like they're worth a million bucks. But the people who are really good at manipulating and integrations are manipulation. I mean, that's just what it is. But you want to figure out a sense of balance, right? Because if you give someone just a little bit of hope and then you tear that down, Then there's like oh I'm dependent on this this person now because I'm not worth anything The same thing like you might tear them down and then give them a little sense of hope So then now you're like, I'm your way out I'm gonna be the one that protects you and I think mother Gothel does that and then Tremaine Tremaine does too right because like when there's this ball coming up Lady Tremaine gives Cinderella the hope that if she can have a dress to go, that she can go. So she's torn her down, torn her down. She's the one who has to cook and clean and do all these things for them all the time.

37:29 But then she gives her this sliver of hope. So that's where she goes. Which was an unrealistic expectation. Totally. Yeah. But she goes and creates this very, you know, beautiful dress with the things that she had with the scraps that they didn't want at all. Yeah. But she can't let her have it. So after that hope, then she's got to tear her down. And that's when they... the dress off. Now I do want to stop and pause here because I think I could be wrong, but I think you have a story about step, uh, step sisters and dresses. Is this, is this true? Josh? You got to tell the story. And I sent you these pictures. So you have to show them to the group. But, um, so I've, I'm usually like on top of like the Halloween costumes. My wife doesn't care for them at all. Every once in a while I get her to dress up, but she's like, okay, it's a family thing. She hates Halloween. overall she loves Valentine's Day so I got to make sure oh yeah on that one you step up yeah but um so we we're going down to Disneyland during Halloween yes which is the most that's the best time it's the most magical time at Disneyland it is it's actually pretty cool I love it so cool yeah and so I dropped the ball in this time because I'm so busy with work and everything else I'm like we have nothing but my daughter's got like a legitimate Cinderella costume you can probably see it right here now blue it's like a very nice one. I'm like, it's not a costume, it's an actual dress. I can't remember why she got it, but my wife and her love to go shopping sometimes. So she's got that.

38:56 And the rest of us are like, what are we going to do? I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, oh, Cinderella. She's got the dress. It looks just like it. And so we don't have any costumes. So I go to my mom like, do you have anything that can make us look like the ugly stepsisters? And I got the boys. One of them was like, yeah, this is so cool. The oldest was like, seriously, dad? The second one's like, I don't know. And then we started talking about it. He's like, OK, this is going to be funny. And so we're down there. We dress up. And you see in the picture right here is that we look hideous, right? And I'm just wearing this dress. And I'm just like. You know flexing and stuff and this just looks hilarious.

39:44 Well as we start walking through Disneyland I kid you not I'm getting catcall left and right and Just like I now I know how fit women feel. Yeah, it doesn't feel good to get catcalled and so but I did tell my wife I'm like, well, I'm pretty attractive but As we're walking down waiting in line for one of the the rides or I don't I remember what it was and I'm just like I'm getting like a little little and I just sneeze and I just because it's so tight on me because it's not supposed to fit me just rip the whole back and just rips down I'm like oh no and so my kids are laughing like the whole time but my daughter had an absolute blast she loved it because she's the one that looked pretty of course the rest of us were not great My wife, she dressed up as the evil step -mother. And then we were just ugly step -sisters. It was pretty funny. Easy.

40:44 I just went to my mom and she had some leftover dresses from proms and my sister's drill team and random stuff. That's part of what's so interesting for me with Disney and Disney movies. And part of why I think I really enjoy them so much is... You can have the aspects that kids enjoy and love. They love Cinderella. They love the dress. They love Tangle. They love Rapunzel. And yet when we do look deeper, there really are lessons we can take, right? Because obviously, like, the ugly stepsisters, it's hilarious. Your wife, Slady Tremaine, it's probably hilarious. Your daughter, cute as all get out. And we can also look a little deeper and we can say, okay, what are these things that these stories can teach us? Because I mean, ultimately, you know, when, when Walt started, started making these movies, he was drawing on these, these fairy tales of old that were designed to teach like morality stories to people, right? scaring them a little bit of, you know, monsters and stuff that were there if they didn't do the things they were supposed to, but really was originally designed that way. And Walt always said that his movies were for everybody. They weren't just for kids.

41:50 And so, you know, I love, I love being able to pull out these lessons. And I think, you know, with Lady Tremaine and with Mother Gothel, they're such extreme examples. And yet there's so many times where we can see the manipulations from people around us, where we can see people trying to manipulate us. Or we even sometimes fall into those traps ourselves. What would you say of like, what are ways that you can pay attention and watch out for falling into some of those manipulation traps that people oftentimes do, even unintentionally? So even in my field, in real estate, right? A lot of times people think it's a cutthroat, you know, negotiations. And...

42:33 I actually, I think you can get a lot further with influence than you can with manipulation. Especially when someone recognizes it, because you don't feel good when you're being manipulated. When you're influenced, you feel good about it. And so I've come at this in negotiations, I don't go in and try to just tear people down. And, you know, instead I'm trying to find what is their... their motive, what's their motivator, right? And this is key too. Everyone's got different motivators. A lot of people think it's money. That's not, it's never money. Rarely. Yeah. Rarely the case. It's what they can get from that money is what their true motivators, whether it's power, whether it's prestige or it's luxury, you know, living, you know, it can be service, all sorts of stuff, right? It can be security. So those are actual motivators. not money necessarily.

43:35 Very few people. It can, in some cases, be. So when you look at the motivators, you say, OK, what is it really important to you? I'll give an example. One of my clients, he was a veteran, and he couldn't afford enough. And I'm like, well, we're up against competition. And so I reached out to the group and said, guys, look, my client's willing to pay this, but it doesn't appraise. Other people will only pay above. But what this does do is it does help my veteran clients. And this is who they are. This is what's taking place here. And they said, you know what? We don't normally do this, but we've got enough spread that we'll move forward. So that's an influence. It's not a manipulation, right? Manipulation would be the opposite of like, you guys are going to screw up this couple. They're going to be homeless. How dare you? And then getting that fear factor like, oh, you're going to remember this the rest of your life. That's the fear.

44:29 No one feels good about it. Can it work? Absolutely. But influence is a much stronger tactic, because it also helps you shine in any sort of business. In your personal lives, this is important, too, because spouses influence each other. They can also manipulate each other. And I've taught this to my daughter recently. She's learned the manipulation game with the brothers and us. But I taught her and said, hey, if you come at this in a softer way and you say, hey, brother, it would mean a lot to me if you would help me out with this chore. And I love it when you help me out. And she did it. And he just lit up because now he felt like he was a good brother versus, ah, I'm going to tell mom that you refuse to do anything, right? Do both of them work sometimes sometimes influence carries a much stronger weight. Yeah, you know when we're talking about this in relation to Anytime we're selling something I've always thought about it. I shouldn't say always I've more recently thought about it when I thought more deeply about this Is that when when someone's manipulated to buy something? they're almost always going to have buyer's remorse. Oh, absolutely.

45:47 And when someone's influence, because it actually is benefiting them, they don't have the buyer's remorse. In teaching my attorneys here, and now our sales people staff that we have here since I started this firm, it's one thing that I've always going to beat in their heads is like, you need to run this consultation process in a way that the person feels good about moving forward with us. We need to actually believe that we're gonna do something good with them for them for their case that if they hire us They're actually going to be better if you have to believe because if you don't we are manipulating because you're only benefiting yourself But the last thing that I want is that person signing up with us that day and then the next day regretting it Absolutely, we can't have it because now we're actually representing them over the next On average 10 months and if we're doing that and they immediately started out with buyer's remorse We've started out the wrong way. We've done the wrong thing and so we have to engage in influence and not manipulation because Frankly, our business counts on it for us to get people that. to listen to what we give them advice and to want to engage in the process here and try to be effective in our representation. We've got to have them bought in from the beginning. And I imagine the same thing probably works with you. If you're manipulating somebody to do something in real estate and they have buyer's remorse, that's not going to be an effective way for you to run your business.

47:01 Yeah, because you're trying to run your business long term. And so there are plenty of people who will do one and done, take advantage, make a lot of money. they won't get that repeat business right and I think this goes back to couples especially I think this is where it can be super helpful and help avoid divorces you know the the situation is my wife could come to me and say why don't you help around with the dishes right the common common thing or take out the trash whatever the chore is right um or you just sit down and watch tv and say but she she came to me said I appreciate When you turn off the TV and you help me with the dishes, that means so much to me. Thanks for all that you do. I'm gonna be like, oh, where's the dishes, right? And in the inverse too, if you're saying to your spouse, and this isn't for all couples, but if the wife is making dinner and you're like, where's my dinner? Like, I'm home. I've been working all day long. Well, he said, hey, you know, thanks so much. I know you've been handling the kids. And I just appreciate when you make me dinner, even when it's been busy. Like, just appreciation. Then then people aren't dreading. It's not like work. It's like oh, I am excited I'm happy to do this because I get appreciated for it Yeah, that's huge. I mean and it's part of it is the thinking outside of yourself, right? Who is the beneficiary of that? Like are you saying it just so they'll make you dinner next time are you saying it because you actually want them to be appreciated for what they do and People will sniff it out. Yeah, like I'm gonna go manipulate. Hey, honey. I really

48:34 love you make a dinner for me, right? Yeah it's it's gonna it's gonna come across tallow it's not gonna be genuine but if it is if you truly mean it so like go into it mean it if you're gonna say it uh but it does like it it resonates you know and uh my wife's been really good about this in the last year she knows that like because i own this firm and i run it a lot of times i'm having to work late late days and sometimes having to work on the weekends and every couple of weeks it seems like she'll just send me a text or just tell me like hey i really appreciate how hard you're working for us. And I know that you're sacrificing to provide for me. That's like, it's the best. Have you seen those memes where they have like the shark coming up, biting something, there's like a dinosaur and people like climbing stuff. It's like, yeah, invigorating. Exactly.

49:16 Because I know that she's not doing that for herself. She's doing it just to look outward and to, and it has an influence on me for the better because she's knows that I need that. And when we will look for those things intentionally with our spouse and our relationships to do that, we can have influence for such good. And for such, like, love and happiness and joy, right? That love can be something that is so much stronger than the fear -based. Even though fear is quick, love long -term. And you talk about being genuine, being sincere, right? You said people sniff it out. It's that same thing, it's the gut feeling. Something just fills off. And... whether they recognize the what, they know there's something there. And body language is super important.

50:06 And so sometimes, and some people, well, let's go back a second, because sometimes we overanalyze body language too. But there's people who are autistic, and they don't keep the eye contact. So you might get thrown off a little bit there. But really, when it comes down to it, if you're just genuine, sincere, And it's like, yeah, I'm going to go above and beyond for you in the sale of your property. And if I don't do it, now I'm going to feel guilty. But as you do it, everyone just feels better about it. And I feel like I've earned it. There's people who will, and same thing with attorneys, some people will charge everything and do nothing. Same thing with risk agents. Same thing with lenders. Same thing with various aspects of the industries. when you actually work for it it not only does it benefit your business you can look at it that way, but you feel good and So does everybody else and then there's no question like oh Am I ever gonna get sued or are they gonna hate me or are they gonna give a bad review? I've had tons of good reviews.

51:12 I had one bad review I don't know who the guy is so might be a competitor, you know sure, but yeah, I think you're absolutely right when you're genuine people feel it And I think one of the things that we had touched on before in kind of our preparations was this idea as well when it comes to manipulation versus influence is, I believe we talked about this, but listening to respond or listening to understand. And in these situations, the genuineness comes out in it. If we are listening to understand. then we are being genuine because we are wanting to hear that person now. We want to hear their perspective. We're trying to understand where they're coming from. Whereas if we're simply listening to respond, we're not genuinely listening. It's just like, okay, get through what you're going to say because I got to say something now, right? It's my turn to say something. Yeah. So when you're listening to respond, first, your eye contact is not going to be on the person and they're going to feel it. Oh, interesting. Because you're, remember you're going to your creative mind, which you start to look that direction. Because you're like, in your head, writing what you're going to say. Yeah. So then they feel like you're outside, right? So the other thing is, when you're listening to respond, is you're actually not giving them validity, right? Because if you respond and you say, OK, but this, this is what we call the yes, but, right? Yeah. The yes, but kills any rapport.

52:42 So if you say yes, but I got this this and that and if you go about it this way you say yes actually what I'm hearing you say is you're feeling this way and I can see why you feel that way okay I feel good and can I share something that's been bothering me and they're like you're asking and they give you permission so now they're gonna be more receptive um and so then you start saying and this is a little bit how I'm feeling and then and she does the same thing it's like okay But the yes but is a killer. It's a total killer. Listen to understand, listen not to respond.

53:23 It's a game changer. It's a game changer and I think people will find when you engage in that in any relationship that you have with your spouse, a business partner, a co -worker, a client, it'll completely change the way the interactions feel during and it'll also change the way you feel after. And in a really positive way, too, is my experience. So there's the phrase, win the battle, but lose the war. A lot of times we win the argument, but lose the relationship. For sure. Too many times. Yeah. Too many times we're just really short sighted in that. And it's easy to because your emotions get going and it's really easy for those emotions to override those long term like benefits that are there. Speaking on that. This is the moment when we know emotions are high as an interrogator. That's when we have control And so when you lose your emotional cool You've lost So the more you can stay calm the less control a manipulator has It's so interesting when you say that too. It's like When I'm having a discussion with my wife the moment that I do the moment my emotion gets a hold of me too much It's over. I'm not going to get through to her.

54:38 She's not going to get through to me. It's almost pointless for the discussion at that point in time, because it's lost. It's toast. Oh, it's such an interesting way to look at it. As an integrator, that's actually kind of what you're going for. In that case, yeah, that's my job. In that situation, I want to get them there. That is my job. Get them there. But then learn the lesson from it, right? That that's what we need to guard against when we're having a discussion with somebody. Don't let it get to that point, because then if you do, you're not going to have... the positive relationship there that you're looking for. Yeah. Okay, so we'll hit a this or that. We'll hit a rapid fire and then we'll circle back with some final thoughts in your three actual takeaways. Okay. Looking forward to those. Okay, so here is a this or that. So it's whatever you think. You choose between the two. Might be a controversial pick. You'll have to defend yourself.

55:24 All right, let's go. If that's the case. Glass slipper or frying pan? Four. Whatever however, you want to take that i'll take the frying pan take the frying pan around you'd be repulsed. Oh there. Um, it's better weapon That fair. Yeah, it probably is that glass would just pull apart. Well, I don't know maybe good for stabbing the hill Okay, yeah, it could be i'll take the pan tower window or or castle ballroom tower window It's like iconic. It's really interesting when I went and re -watched cinderella for this like she's cast away into the tower, but really I was like, it could be rad to be up in that tower. I mean, you probably got to have a lot, but like if you would be amazing, right? You get some privacy, totally. Right. But then you got the mother and the evil and ugly stepsisters, um, Pascal or Gus Gus. Gus Gus. Gus Gus is fine.

56:19 And Cinderella, he's really fun. Like he's the funny one. Um, okay. I don't know if you've experienced either of these, but i'm just gonna see right in military helicopter ride or tank ride Do I get to uh, shoot anything sure, okay the tank Okay fair. That's a great. That's a great clarification there. I haven't been in one yet actually so That'd be kind of fun. Um tactical gear or dress uniform tactical gear Absolutely. That's fair. I would have guessed that. I would have guessed that. Day one. Early morning mission or night mission? I like to... I'm an early bird guy, but night mission sounds cool. Yeah, right. You know... Yeah, night vision gobs. Yeah, like what you kind of see. Like, yeah, totally cool. Okay, here's a rapid fire. Favorite Disney movie? I think my favorite Disney movie is actually Tangled.

57:17 So good. It reminds me of my wife. She's just like Rapunzel. Oh, man. That's good. Those are good characteristics to have. That's amazing. Favorite Disney song. Favorite Disney song. You know, I think this is going to be the Aladdin. Like the one jump. Oh, one step ahead. Yes. Or one jump ahead. Yeah, something like that. But yeah, I love that song. It's like so catchy. Yeah, it totally is. And then they have like during it, there's the ladies that kind of interact. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, it's really fun. Some funny moments of that one. Favorite Disney princess? I had a lot of princess girlfriends growing up. I liked Jasmine. Yeah. I think that was my go -to. Jasmine was great. Jasmine was great. I'm a big fan of Jasmine. Favorite Disney hero or heroine? Favorite Disney hero? I would say probably Hercules. He's a good one. Yeah. Has a great character journey. He's strong but sincere. I think I like that. Yeah, and at first he's kind of fuddling his way around. I like it when they show him as a kid where he can't do anything right. You know he's all strong but nobody likes him because he keeps messing everything up and breaking everything, right? Actually, he really humanizes him. Favorite Disney villain. Oh, okay.

58:47 Favorite Disney villain. it's gonna take a minute i never really thought of that there's so there's so many good villains out there and uh the ones that i love to see like in the uh parade they do uh during like the ogee boogie bash yeah disneyland because it's like a villain's parade so it's so fun and now they're doing the villains land in magic kingdom in orlando won't be there for a few years but once they do that'll be a fun line to go to I'm gonna take a rain check on that one. Okay, no problem. Well, the next two I'm looking forward to. These are two that I have. Normally I do about the same questions, but these two were for you. Okay. This is gonna make you think as well, okay? Okay. Disney character that would be the best interrogator. Okay. Honestly, Scar. Ooh, yeah. Because he's another manipulator, right? He's totally smart. Yes, but he... He uses his assets and uses people to then come into the play quite a bit So I think you get interrogator totally convinces Simba that it was his fault. Yeah his father Yep, like master manipulator to convince him to do that. We should talk more about that one But yeah, that is a great all of them do it. Yeah, that's a great answer. Okay Disney character you would most want to interrogate Most want to interrogate

1:00:23 You know, I think I would like to interrogate Mother Gothel. Because I like to see people, when people are that type of person, I like to make them squirm a little. Yeah, and she could use a little of that. She made that Rapunzel squirm for a long time. She deserves it. She totally deserves it. Those are good answers. So as we kind of wrap up, a couple of things before we get to the takeaways that I was wondering about from you when it comes to interrogation stuff, which is... you know what what are some of the things that people could learn from what you know about interrogation that could help them in their lives that obviously don't violate anything you're not allowed to share yeah obviously uh but that like or something that somebody really can take and say okay that's actually an interesting skill or interesting way to look at an interesting technique that can improve my relationships the the thing i would probably um come to is I think understanding your partner, your friends, motivators.

1:01:29 When it comes to that, then you can address and say, oh, to be a good friend, they like my time. Or they like presence. I'm not a present guy. I could care less about them. But if someone were to say, how do they have a good time with me, I'd just. good quality time with them. And I'd be like, that was the best thing you could do for me. So once you know their motivator, then, you know, work with them as giving what they need and then share your own motivator with your friend, your spouse. So they understand that, too, because we don't always understand. We don't want the same things. Even if we're friends or we have a partner, we think of it from the lens of, well, this is what I want.

1:02:15 So she's definitely got to want it. And then she's going to think, Well, like my wife, she's like, well, I like having a birthday party and people over. I want this for you. I'm like, well, I don't want much people for my birthday. But then if she just did something simple, like rubbed my feet. That's like the best for me. You make me a nice little dinner. I watch a show and a quiet piece. And she's like, you're so weird, Josh. She loves the Gayla's. I hated the Gayla's, you know, but. Yeah motivation. Okay, I understand their motivation. It's a great answer and so when when it comes to the topic that we've been talking about and again drawing on all the Experiences that you've had and the things that you've learned through doing the things that you've done. What are three Actionable takeaways and somebody could have three things that they could put into their lives take action on today or this week The one of the things I would say is We talked about urgency. Slow it down. You don't have to make a decision right now. You can always say, thank you for the information. I'm going to go and research this further. And let's follow up. That slows any manipulator, especially for sales.

1:03:32 I mean, you get this from door -to -door salesmen, pest controls, time shares, realtors, attorneys. I mean, you name it. They're trying to get you to sign something ASAP, right? But if you say let me review this and let me know if you have any questions and if they say Well, what can I do to get you to sign today say I'd be myself a promise. I won't sign anything right away. I'll do the research Don't you want me to do the research and make sure I make a good decision you put the onus back on them because they're back Yes, of course. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for giving me the time to now research it and get back with you Now they're stuck sure So that's the one thing I'd say it would be a takeaway.

1:04:14 Slow it down and delay your response or your decision. What are two others? So the other one, I would say again, don't do the yes but. That's the takeaway. The yes but, it kills relationships. And another thing to keep into the relationship is what we talked about. The listen to understand. Not listen to respond so good and it's honestly it's it's benefited me and everything I do the more I listen to them then I understand what they want and they feel heard and It also helps me to know what I need to do as an agent To make them happy some people they're like I want something quick someone's like I want you checking in with me every day Someone's like don't talk to me at all until it's sold, you know, but knowing it But I don't talk a lot in those conversations.

1:05:04 I let them talk. OK, what else are you looking for? What else are you looking for? OK, so you want these things. And if I do those things, then you will be satisfied with what I provide for you. Absolutely. There you go. Well, Josh, thank you so much for being on this episode with us. I really enjoyed learning from you, learning from a master interrogator on some of the things to avoid, some of the things to look out for in our own relationships and ways we can improve. On yes land and not yes but. That's right. That's right. That's exactly right. So appreciate you, brother. All right. Thanks, man. As you lead this conversation, remember that yes, the past can hurt and you can either run from it or you can learn from it. So here's to learning and finding joy in the journey. See you real soon.