Nathan Hooper Pixar's Soul and the Art of Getting Unstuck | Nathan Hooper

0:00 dude this movie is so beautiful if you haven't seen this like i don't know how humans wrote it it's just honestly incredible the story joe gardner he's a jazz musician he's a band teacher teaches eighth grade and he dies like he falls into a sewer and dies and like that's it and he's like my life is over he's like i can't be dying right now when my life is just about to get started like joe thought his spark was he thought that that was his purpose yes and i love the line with uh the jerry where he's like my purpose is piano and then jerry's like oh you humans and your passions like your spark's not your purpose like it's so basic my family hadn't made it to austin yet i go to the apartment i just like i'm just like laying on the ground like you know like kind of overwhelmed by that goal overwhelmed by uh my performance and just like really feeling like what am i doing I had had buddies who had gotten married and gotten divorced in less than a year. And then I was reading a book called So Good They Can't Ignore You. Such a good book. And there was a line that hit me so hard that I needed to start this podcast.

0:56 And so my wife and I just jumped into it. So I feel like nature has a way of snapping me back out. All these birds just going about their lives, just finding their worms. They're just doing their thing. And all I'm doing is going about my life, finding my worm. Like, why am I getting so worked up about that? I'm going to hike and just seeing the vista, just seeing like, I am in one tiny little section of the whole world. And this little section is beautiful. But if I really zoom out, this place is so big. There is so much going on here. Welcome to Yes and Land, where we say yes to the reality of yesterday and today, and we say and to the possibility, growth, and imagination of tomorrow. Welcome to another episode of Yes and Land. We are very excited today. We are joined by Nathan Hooper.

1:46 We might kind of go through what to call him. Is it Nate? Is it Nate the Great? Is it Hooper? Hoop Daddy. Hoop Daddy. Or just Hoops. We'll see. As we evolve through this episode, we're going to kind of get a feel for what to call you. Yeah, we'll start at Nathan and at Hoop Daddy. We'll get there. Okay. I mean, I'm just going to go for right now. I'm going to go to the full name, Nathan Hooper. So Nathan Hooper is an account strategist at a company called 97th Floor, which is a fantastic company. that does a ton of marketing for some really great companies. And Nathan is also, I'm going to call him a sports psychologist enthusiast. Yeah, I love that. Something that you've dove into a lot and learned a lot about. And we're going to have fun today because we're going to talk about... The movie Soul, which is a terrific movie, actually came out in 2020 during COVID, which is interesting. And they have, I mean, a wonderful musician who wrote music for that and has talked a lot about it, John Batiste, who is fantastic. And today we're going to be talking a little bit about really getting alignment.

2:56 finding what I'm going to say, joy in the journey. That's a phrase we like to use, finding joy in the journey, and really kind of finding and building for fulfillment and success along the path. So I'm really excited to kind of see and hear some of your takes there. You all should know as well that Hoop Daddy did have a podcast for a while there, and the podcast he did with his wife, which is really cool, and the podcast was designed for, if I'm not mistaken, helping people prepare for marriage. That's right. Is that right? Which is why it's kind of fun today because we have kind of a paradox, right? So Nathan was out there helping people make sure they stay married, and I'm over here helping people get divorced. I was trying to take you out of business. You were, right? And it's funny, in our prep, as I thought more about that, I think it's kind of a fun paradox because in real, I don't think it's sexually that different. When I think about some of the things that we do as a divorce law firm, for me as a divorce attorney, I'm trying to help educate people on how to get alignment in co -parenting, how to have less conflict, but also really providing tools and education resources so the next time around, hopefully it'll stick.

4:05 Hopefully it'll stick, right? Because the reality is I don't want people to get divorced. I always say when people come to us and they do a consultation with me, they're asking me if they should get divorced. I'm like, that is totally your call. I'm not here to tell anybody to get divorced. ready to get divorced, when it's the right call for their situation, their life, then we help them do it. So that'd be kind of a fun paradox for us to kind of explore a little bit today. So Nate, just real briefly, I would love for you to give a little bit of background for yourself, kind of like where you're from, how you ended up deciding to start a podcast and kind of where that took you and all the way up until where you are now. Sure. Yeah. I'm from West Jordan.

4:45 So I know you're also from West Jordan. I went to the Jaguars, West Jordan High, so Copper Hills. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Big rivalry. I would like to say we had a rivalry. I don't think either of us was really good enough for a rivalry, right? We both wanted to be rivals with Bingham. With Bingham, but they would just smack us around. Yeah, it was just horrible. And Bingham's like, oh, you guys are like the little brothers. Like, not even important. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I grew up in West Jordan. I'm the oldest of four. Big basketball guy. We were just hitting on basketball. So I love basketball sports. That kind of led into the sports psychology. So I started a mission for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, got back. I got into finance. I worked at E -Trade for a while, became a broker, met my wife on Mutual online. Shout out, Mutual. That's how we met. And then we got married, and I started getting into door -to -door sales, and that took me into the podcast, which was just something I wanted to do on the side. I had had buddies who had gotten married and gotten divorced in less than a year. It's tough. It was really tough. And then I was reading a book called So Good They Can't Ignore You. uh, by Cal, I forget his last name, but Cal Newport, such a good book. And there was a line in there.

5:49 I forget the line on us right now, but it hit me so hard. I need to start this podcast. And so my wife and I just jumped into it, you know, both feet in and we started doing this podcast and talking about, uh, we had had an experience before we got married. We were able to work with a marriage counselor that my wife knew had a family friend, a marriage therapist. And so we had two sessions with her before we got married. I feel like it was so impactful for us to help us. have a strong foundation to build on as we got married. So we wanted to share some of that. There really weren't any resources for marriage preparation that we could find. And so we wanted to kind of be the first ones in that space. So when you look at that, what did you, as you do that podcast, as you start bringing guests on, you're diving deeper into that world, what did you start to identify some of the major problems or issues that people could correct when they were... In those stages of getting engaged and going to be married so that hopefully that they could stay together and not end up down that path of divorce. Yeah. A big thing that we pushed in. So our therapist, she had given us this marriage checklist, had a bunch, a bunch of different questions from every topic, from finances to communication styles to, you know, sexual intimacy, like all these different topics that we hit on that we'd want to talk about and have these deep conversations with before we got married was so important for us. I feel like one of the best advice I'd gotten was. Just making sure you guys are. aiming in the same direction like you both want to go the same place like this an easy example is if i want to i don't want to have any children and i want to live in utah that's my life and i'm my i marry my wife and she wants to have

7:19 five kids and move to florida like those things are so different that we're naturally going to brush up on each other so making sure that we're moving the right direction moving in the same direction we have the similar goals we've had those deep conversations about all these different topics beforehand to make sure that we're aligned and being vulnerable with each other i think it's one of the most critical things that young preparing couple can can do to help make sure they're building the right foundation and so let me ask you a few more questions about that kind of building the right foundation uh getting alignment on kind of where you're going i think there's this interesting thing for us to explore here a little bit about you know what is what is the alignment and and what are the goals you're shooting for when i was thinking about this to me what kept coming to mind and one of the important things i think and i want to get your take is really getting alignment on values as well yeah because There are times like we don't know where life is going to take us. If you told me in law school that I would be a divorce attorney, I would have literally laughed at you. I've been like, that will never happen. I will never do that. Divorce is the worst, so I will not practice that. And so if I had been so set in that, I might not have found something that ended up being really fulfilling. But to me, getting alignment on values is... also a super important part of that foundation in my mind. What's your take on that, on alignment on values, but also alignment on what those goals are while still understanding flexibility and what those things could be? That's a good question. I think you have to have that baseline level of, we're connected at this point.

8:51 We have similar values where you want to go in the same direction. I think that is really, really pivotal. I just totally agree with that. You have to have those same Same foundation of, yeah, we're aligned on that. That space thing, it's huge. Yeah, I mean, if much like in business, I think, if values are misaligned, then even if sometimes you might be theoretically going in the same direction when values are misaligned, it just becomes this rub. Now, it's sometimes hard to know that, right? I think what I really appreciate about what you were suggesting and what you and your wife did is you did some of that work before. When you're hiring somebody in business, you get an interview for an hour.

9:38 It's kind of hard to figure out, have those deep conversations and figure out that. But do people sometimes do that with their relationships and don't do enough of the work work? I mean, sometimes people get so caught up in the newness of this. you know i'm so in lust yes with this person yes that that sometimes those other conversations the deeper ones don't happen yeah 100 and i i do like the idea too of being able to see each other in every stage of life or the four seasons i think that's a big point that some advice we've gotten is yeah seeing your significant other in all four seasons and just different seeing different sides going on different on trips or just like different how they interact with those families i think you're just constantly just putting each other in different situations seeing how people are responding and making sure that you're lined up that way. And yeah, you're doing it for the right reason. I think that lasts, especially in Utah culture where it's like, you know, got these feelings and I, yeah, you know, kind of get married early so we can do what we want to do. And it can cause some trouble if you don't have a real strong foundation. You know, you're kind of, you're built on a sandy foundation on that for sure. I like the idea of the four seasons. Did you ever see the movie with, I think it was Jimmy Fallon. I don't know if it was called Boston Fever or Fever Pitch or something. But, like, he was this guy who was this just fanatic Boston Red Sox fan in the movie. And when he first meets this girl, it's not baseball season. And so she gets, like, the version of him that's not in baseball season.

11:07 That's, like, attentive and does stuff with her. And she, like, falls in love with him. And then suddenly, like, baseball season comes. And he is obsessed, right? Every single game. And it's this big thing of, like, figuring out who's going to be going with him. They spend all this time, like, you know, his friends, like, bidding for who wants to go to what game. And it just becomes all -encompassing during baseball season. It's a totally different version because it's a different season. Literally, like, season of the year, but also, like, baseball season. I do think when you first said that, it made me think of that. Like, if you don't see what somebody's like during different seasons, it might be a little bit shocking, a little bit surprising, right? Helpful to have those different seasons that you see. 100%. So will you kind of set the stage for us? Because I want to dive into some things about soul. Cool.

11:57 And how it kind of applies to these topics and kind of run through the... the arc of the story as we talk. But if you could lay the foundation of the movie Soul. Give us a little recap of overarching what the movie is. Dude, this movie is so beautiful. If you haven't seen this movie, I don't know how humans wrote it. It's just honestly incredible the whole flow of it. But the story, Joe Gardner, he's a jazz musician. He's a band teacher, teaches eighth grade. And you can tell he's dissatisfied with his life. He doesn't feel like he's done much. He's older. He's single. uh lives by himself like he just generally feels dissatisfied he ends up finally getting his big break where he has this big opportunity to play with in a jazz band with a really famous musician super excited. And he's going about his life.

12:46 He just is like pump. He's calling people. He's walking through the city and he dies. Like he falls into a sewer and dies and like, that's it. And he's like, my life is over. He's like, I can't, I can't be dying right now when my life is just about to get started. Like I'm just finally about to start living and like now it's over. And so he has this big anxiety and he's kind of trying to crawl out of like, he's like on this escalator moving into heaven kind of deal, the great beyond. And he's trying to get out of it. And he finally like slips through. And he lands in the great before, which is where he meets 22. And she's a soul that doesn't want to live. And so they have the kind of fun contrast of him wanting to get back to his life so bad, even though by all measures of the world, his life has been a failure. 22 doesn't want to live at all. And they connect and they go through their whole experience and end up making it towards the end where he achieves his dream. He gets to do what he wanted to do, but it ends up not fulfilling him. That's not actually what. he like he realized it's not what's what he wanted but it wasn't what he needed and so then he has his experience where he played yeah he has he plays with her um and then it's like yeah he wasn't filled so he goes back and helps 22 then and that's where he really has fulfillment and gets what he needs and actually learns what the purpose of life is that really is just life itself there's not necessarily a goal that you're trying to reach but an experience so part of the way that they kind of phrased that in there was that these in the group before that these little kind of souls needed to find their spark yeah and until they found a spark they wouldn't go to earth right that kind of idea so 22 has been in this uh forever in this journey of trying

14:17 to find a spark and she she thinks she knows what it means to find a spark and so does joe and i think what's what's one of the really great lessons from it is what is that end up meaning. What is a spark? What is the finest spark? We're going to dive into that. So I want to take you back. So now we know the story. I want to take you back. So we go back before Joe actually dies, right? And he's got to get his suit tailored up. And his mom is... What is it called? She's a seamstress. And so he goes to her, and he's telling her what he wants to do. And she's seen this before because her husband was a musician, and she saw The Hard Life, and she was the one who put food on the table because she had a job.

15:00 She had this seamstress shop that she would do to actually make money. And I want to get your take on this exchange. So Joe's mom says when he's talking about his dreams, like, this is my dream gig. I want to go play because he's got it but hasn't done it yet. And she says, you can't eat dreams, Joey. And he says, then I don't want to eat. Yeah. And I don't want to eat. And so it's kind of this heartbreaking exchange because when I think about it, Joe's not trying to be reckless, right? But he's putting all of his stock, all of his worth, everything into getting this gig to be able to play in a jazz band. So kind of give me your take on kind of this exchange between Joe's mom and himself.

15:43 Yeah, that's interesting. One of the first things that comes to my mind is A quote from Alan Watts. Are you familiar with Alan Watts? I think he's from England, but he had a lot of super cool philosophy. And I'll read this quote that I loved. He says, We thought of life by analogy with a journey, a pilgrimage, which had a serious purpose at the end. And the thing was to get to that end, success or whatever it is. Maybe it's heaven after you're dead. But we missed the point the whole way along. It was a musical thing, and you were supposed to sing or dance while the music was being played. For Joe he and it's so interesting to if you guys have seen the movie whiplash using whiplash or have you seen Marty supreme? No. These two movies where it's like it's the antithesis of soul, where it's two characters who are just so focused on their dream, their passion. In Marty Supreme, it's ping pong. And in Whiplash, it's the drums. He wants to be a great drummer. Oh, right. And they're just so focused on that that everything else in their lives falls apart. And it's like they don't.

16:45 Marty Supreme has kind of a happier ending than Whiplash. But it's like they're just it's the cost of living that dream. And so for Joe, he's like, I don't want to eat. I just want to. do this thing. That's what's going to help me be successful. Like if you, when he dies, he has this experience where he sees his life flash before. And he's like, he realizes comparing himself to the other philosopher that he kind of took the spot up. He's like, my life was meaningless because he didn't have any big accomplishments. He, that's what he, that's what he, that was a success look like for him in life is that having this big conscience didn't have those. And so we feel like his life was meaningless. But, um, anyway, it just, the whole idea of. success in your life and finding meaning in your life through all the little moments is what actually makes a meaningful life, especially helping others and serving others. his spark was to play jazz.

17:31 And he thought that that was his purpose. Yes. And I love the line with the Jerry where he's like, my purpose is piano. And the Jerry's like, Oh, you humans and your passions, like your sparks, not your purpose. Like it's so basic. Like that's not your, that's not why you're here on this planet is to play piano. Like that's so basic. So anyway, I love that exchange too. And, and one of the ways that as we kind of see 22 and Joe start to experience some things together, right. Where 22 ends up. taking over joe's body right so she's doing things and so for so long she didn't want to live because she couldn't find a spark suddenly she starts appreciating things yeah right um like the taste of pizza yeah right like uh she sees one of these trees that have the the seeds that fall down and spin right and she sees one of those and um and this is another one that i want to get your take on Because basically she asked him like, well, hey, could my purpose be like sky watching? Could my purpose be walking? Because walking is so great. And he says, those aren't purposes, 22.

18:35 That's just regular old living. What's the lesson there? Because it's right in line with what you're talking about, right? What's the lesson there? Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting moment where he says that at first and it kind of. makes 22 spiral where she's like i want to go find my purpose and she runs away right as they're about to switch their bodies and then it comes back again at the end when he like realizes he got what he wanted it wasn't actually what was going to fulfill him in life and so he goes back to find 22 because it would become a lost soul and then in there like he's like in this i don't know darkness with her and like all these you know ghosts or whatever talking to them and stuff and that line just kind of keeps coming up but i listening to the writers talk about soul and they talk about like the purpose of life is life itself like it is to dance while the music is being played and it is to like experience the the reality and like the beauties of life and we just get so caught up in these certain things that sky watching can absolutely be your purpose of just like enjoying that moment or enjoying the taste of pizza or the sucker or the interaction with the barber like those little moments are really the culmination of those what makes a beautiful meaningful life it's not I was able to play at a jazz band or I won an NBA championship.

19:46 That's not really what success is about at the end of the day. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. And to that point, I mean, that's one of the things that I think Joe ended up commenting on. I wrote this one down. And you mentioned earlier, but it just perfectly fits in with that. After he plays with that jazz band, and he did great. He says, I've been waiting on this day my whole life. I just thought it would feel different. And you sometimes hear that with people who, especially in the sports world, it's really easy to identify that as a type for what we do and experience. But somebody goes and wins a tournament or wins a championship, right? And they have that thing in that moment. They have joy. But then right after, if that's been the only thing, their only focus, it's a huge letdown. And I want to read another quote from, I believe, somebody who you really like. We'll see if you recognize it. This author said, realize deeply that the present moment is all you ever have. Make the now the primary focus of your life. So that's Eckhart Tolle from The Power of Now. Because that's an author you really like, right? We talked about that before. What does that mean to you?

21:02 And let's relate that to like... what you were doing on your podcast the advice that you were giving to couples as they're getting ready to get married right realize deeply the present moment is all you ever have make the now the primary focus of your life yeah i i think that it's really easy for us to get lost in the past or even get lost in planning for the future that we're missing moments now um my oldest daughter, her name is Rosie. And we, there was a couple of kind of fun connections, but we didn't decide on the name until like my, we were in the hospital, like about to give birth. And we had a couple of names and we both landed on Rosie. And what really swayed me was the idea of stopping and smelling the roses of like, I wanted her to be that reminder and let live that like life's purpose of stopping and smelling the roses. And so I think that living in the now, like. For example, like I remember a couple of months ago, I went on a walk. I love to go. I go on walks all the time in my office. But I had like I realized in my walk I was so scattered and I like stopped.

22:05 I got to be present. And I found a little golf ball. Like it was like a little token of if I hadn't been present, I would have missed it. Or I've had other times where I'm just so focused on whatever I'm doing and like whatever challenges are going on. I go on a walk and I see. i see like a beautiful yellow bird or i see geese in the field or i see a duck in the pond and it just like snaps me out of it like those little moments of stillness those little moments of being present now to like This really isn't that big of a deal. I'll actually write another quote here. I love this quote. I saw this on someone had spray painted on a wall, but it was like, you are a ghost driving a meat -coated skeleton made from stardust riding on a rock floating through space. If you just really zoom out, it's like nothing is really that. critical in our lives you know what really matters is what are you doing now and are you present in this moment are you like are you any like i don't know i just it is such a true thing that when we start getting so bogged down in our life our day -to -day what's going on that really if you just zoom into this moment right now there's really nothing to at the end of the day be that worked up about you know before we jump back in can i ask you a quick favor if you're enjoying the journey so far Will you like rate and subscribe to our show? It helps us reach more people like you. We can design and create and build the most wonderful place in the world, but it takes people to make the dream a reality. And I think for

23:35 me, what this highlights is the importance that we have of, we do, I mean, we need to have goals, right? We need to have things where we're saying like, let's get alignment. Yeah. Where, where are we wanting to go? Like, what are we wanting to accomplish? But you set those out, and then you live in the moment. Then you live and be present with what you're doing. You're on this path. Enjoy this path because it is the path. And it's easy for us to do the opposite of that on either end, right? Either have no goals, so now we're wandering around aimlessly without any purpose, which doesn't help either, or we're so focused on some goal in the future that we forget to take those moments to stop and smell the roses. We forget to... appreciate the things that are going on and the the great things we have or i would say like the blessings that we have right absolutely wherever you believe those blessings come from that that you have those things in your life that can bring you joy what's for you what's the difference in finding the happiness or joy once that thing comes which may end up being hollow Or finding joy in the journey. How do you find joy in the journey?

24:45 What does that mean to you? Something I've been thinking about is as I've been thinking about this podcast and just reflecting on different areas of my life, any big accomplishment I have when I reminisce, I'm not reminiscing about the moment of achieving that accomplishment. I'm reminiscing about the process, about what I did, what happened, the obstacles we overcame to get there. Those are the moments I really think about and I really love. It just comes back down to that. So that process of like the end is really not what's going to be the moment that you feel like I'm fixed or I'm whole now. It's like it's just finding those like when you reflect back on the moments, those are those little things when you came together to overcome something. Those are the moments that you really look back on with the most admiration, the most excitement and love and joy that I think I think it really matters. But to answer your question about how do you do it? I think it does come back down to. the presence that like being, being aware of the moment and like stopping. And like, it's E so easy for us to just float through our days.

25:42 And like, you know, you're driving to and from work, you want to work and you're just kind of in this zombie mode, autopilot is doing your thing. And so. having triggers, whether it's like maybe walking through a door that like triggers you back to get into, you stand up a little bit straighter and you're, you're present or you just have little moments that help you come back to the present moment, little triggers that I think can help you to like really realize like how beautiful the day is or what, you know, I think there's lots of little moments, but I think it comes back down to awareness. Yeah. I love that point. And it, it just, it leads right into this quote that I found from John Batiste, right? who is an amazing musician, obviously Grammy Award winner, and wrote, again, much of the music for this movie. He's also got a lot of other great things out there. Just this morning, I actually just happened to come across him. It was the next in my lineup of Adam Grant's podcast that I listen to because I love it. And he was on it with his wife. And it was just like, oh, my goodness, this is like the perfect thing for me to be listening to this guy. But I got a quote from him, and he was talking specifically about soul. And he says, Joe Gardner represents many of my beliefs about jazz and the way that it can take you and the audience to a special place tied into our spirit and soul. That's when we're tapping into the spark that makes us all unique individuals. And so when you're talking about like things that kind of take you where you want to go and like things that you're stopping and recognizing those things, to me, so many times art forms can do that for us. When I think about like, okay, in the movie. joe's playing right

27:15 and he gets kind of lost in it but so does the audience with him and what i really love is like everybody has their own art form that they like yeah for me for whatever reason it's it's theater and it's like live theater like musical theater there's just something about it that i can watch and just appreciating the talent of the people that i'm watching feeling immersed in the story and what it's teaching me and what lessons i have there What is that art form for you? What's the art form that you watch or you see or you hear? And it just like really connects to your soul. Good question. I think some of the, what came to my mind when you were talking, I don't know if this is the right answer to the question, but I do have experiences when I'm listening to music, when I just focus on one instrument.

28:00 of that song or like i really just like kind of put everything out and i just i'm listening to like the piano and i'm just like zoning into the piano or the flute or the violin and like just how that and then like maybe i switch and i do now i just listen to other aspect of it and it's such an interesting experience to do that and like have it just like just it's so amazing that it's all coming together so perfectly like everything's in sync and if if you took out the guitar it wouldn't sound the same but because they all have their their place there it all comes together and it's really fun to listen that way so i don't know if that that's something that an experience i've had a couple times that i really i don't know it's just kind of a fun like puts me back in the present moment it helps me to appreciate the art that this is i think movies can be like that for sure and uh those are a couple that jump out to me i i think that one of the things that sometimes especially we grow older right as we're adults one of the things that we sometimes miss is that feeling of wonder you know um the wonder that you had as you're listening to this instrument and that instrument and that it can all come together so beautifully and create something beautiful and as kids we have it like it's like everything new like oh my goodness like this thing is amazing i remember walking to disneyland the first time like this feeling of wonderment oh my goodness this is unbelievable And as we get older, if we lose that, I think we lose some of the joy in life. I think we lose some of the joy of living.

29:21 But if we can remind ourselves of that and then take those moments and be like, I'm going to listen to this song. I like this. I love doing this. I love what this is like. I just think it brings some more of that joy as we're experiencing life. Yeah, you reminded me of a book I read recently called The Art of Spending Money. from Morgan Housel, super great book. But he shared this experience with this man who was blind his whole life. He's like up to his forties and he'd had a surgery where he could then see, and he was in the hospital and he was freaking out because of the carpet. He's like, that's blue. Like, are you kidding me? Like, how are you people just like going about your days when this carpet is in this room? And he like, he just was seeing the carpet. And I like, it just hit me so hard.

30:03 Yeah, like, there's those little moments, and you can imagine, like, how it was when we went outside and saw the sky and saw, like, all these things for the first time. Anyway, I just love that experience and, you know, the wonderment. I think that's one of the beautiful things about having kids. Yes. Because I think it helps to remind us of that sometimes when we get really busy and we have a lot of things going. You know, I can just think about just in the last couple of weeks, right? You know, my youngest daughter, who's six. We've had her join this little choir. She's getting singing lessons, which is so odd for our family because I can't sing at all. My other three kids, maybe it's hidden and we don't know, but I don't think they can either. But she's shown this like inclination to be able to sing. And it just so happened to be this new neighborhood we moved into had this lady who teaches singing lessons and has this great little choir. And we're going to her first performance, right? And she gets to sing. It's a single line, right? Two bars, a single line, a solo. this choir and just just having this wonder about her being able to do it and this joy that I feel and seeing her have so much joy in doing it you know and it's like those moments in life are in my mind that's part of what we're talking about here of like building your life of fulfillment and happiness right it's not because she's gonna go win some award doing it It's because she's actually really loved doing the singing thing, and her teacher's been able to unlock in her her voice, which is so cool. So now she's not

31:34 so shy to sing. Now she's willing to, and she's willing to do it in front of this audience. And those moments bring me back to living in the moment, living in the present moment. feeling those feelings of being fulfilled, even when I have other things that are sometimes stressing me. It was so nice because that particular day, it was a pretty hard day at work, right? And I had a pretty hard week that prior week. But that all went away. It's like, I don't know. Life's actually really great. I can deal with those things when I get back to the office. I will have to, but I don't have to let it dominate my thoughts and my feelings. What do you do to shake yourself out of it if you're in that situation that we all sometimes find ourselves in where we aren't living in the moment? We're Joe Gardner, and we're like, oh, my life is meaningless. What's the point? Oh, it's horrible. I'm not getting what I want. What do you do to shake yourself out of it? I have found that being in nature, you know, like I was kind of sharing some experiences going on walks. Like I remember being really bogged down with work stuff. I went on a walk and I just saw all these geese in the field were just eating. And it made me think about, you know, the scriptures of, about God, you know, he, he takes care of the fowls in the field.

32:52 Like how much more does he not care about and love you? uh if he's willing to feed them and like i was like all these birds just going about their lives just find their worms they're just doing their thing and all i'm doing is going about my life finding my worm like why am i getting so worked up about that so i feel like nature has a way of snapping me back out i love going into the mountains going to hike and just seeing the vista just seeing like i am in one tiny little section of the whole world and this little section is beautiful but if i really zoom out this place is so big there is so much going on here And it just helps me to get perspective on like, if I'm really so zoomed into what I'm working on and what I'm, you know, what I'm focused on that, like backing things up, seeing some beautiful things, a beautiful site and just realizing my place in the world and just trying to influence things and do the best I can. That's really all I can ask myself. So I think there's been a couple of things that. Whether sometimes I try to intentionally put myself into it or God or I have an experience that just helps me to snap back out of this funk that I'm in. I feel like I've been grateful to have those moments in my life. Have you ever had an experience where things were really hard?

33:57 Have you experienced a really big trial in your life that was something that was pretty tough, pretty dark, pretty difficult? And if so, what... What did that journey out of that look like? Yeah, it's a good question. I definitely haven't had, like, when I was in seventh, eighth grade, I had a really good friend of mine pass away from cancer, and that was a moment that was, yeah, that was. That young. Yeah, Jaden Lambert, shout out to Jaden. He was amazing and had some really beautiful experiences with him and just like reflecting on that. What came to my mind, I guess, like a bit of, I don't know, this is a different take on maybe your question, but.

34:37 So I did door -to -door sales for three years selling pest control, and that's a hard gig. I had to remember my third summer. I was always good. I was good at selling, and I was always successful. And so I did it for three summers. My third summer was in Austin, Texas, selling pest control, and I was running a team with my friend. And I had kind of set this goal. Like, in pest control sales, if you can sell 1 ,000 contracts, that's kind of like the gold standard. Like, you're elite, you know? And I had, I was like dabbling up, should I go for a thousand? I don't know. And so my first, I'm like, I'm going to go for a thousand. Why not? Uh, my first day I go and I'm knocking and I like barely get one, right? Like I just get, I sell this one Hispanic, I spoke Spanish, my mission. So I sold this like one spent like family speaking Spanish.

35:20 I remember going back to my farm. I, my family hadn't made it to. Austin. Yeah. And I go up to the apartment. I just like I'm just like laying on the ground, like, you know, I kind of overwhelmed by that goal, overwhelmed by my performance and just like really feeling like, what am I doing? And so I did like a little meditation, just laying on the ground and talking to I had hired a coach that year to help me work through some things. And. Anyway, just kind of changing my goal and got to 500. Anyway, it was a whole thing, but I remember that moment of being just like so overwhelmed and so burdened, but then contrast that with reaching the goal. I ended up changing my goal to 500, reaching that goal, getting through it, showing up every day, chopping wood, carrying water, and then, yeah, achieving that was kind of a special moment of kind of coming through.

36:07 But anyway, that was what jumped into my mind with that question. So that, I mean, that kind of brings to my mind a couple other questions I have for you then. So, you know, in life, early on in this conversation, we're talking about, like, sometimes, you know, we're going down a certain path and life takes a different direction. And it's not necessarily a bad thing, right? And so kind of what I've heard is, like, you had this one where, like, it was going to be 1 ,000, but in reality, like, it ended up being 500. And that was the right goal because of what it was there and what you could accomplish and what you were doing. You had this great podcast, right? And then at some point in time, you guys decided to stop doing the podcast. And so life took you in a different direction. What guidance would you have for people when you're trying to experience the joy and find the fulfillment in life, and sometimes that means you've got to make a change? Yeah, that's a good question.

36:56 I think making any changes in your life, I found a lot of... I don't know exactly how to put this, but just in talking and counseling with my wife, I found so much wisdom from her and being able to come to her with challenges I'm going through or like just being able to have someone to counsel with. Oh, that's yeah. That's the other apparent, the Lord. I feel like in making those decisions has been, and even journaling, I feel like journaling too and getting those thoughts down have been so impactful to really help. me pinpoint the direction we need to go and like hey if we're feeling like we need to change this like so for that goal of going from a thousand it was counseling with that coach i'd hired he's like hey mission 1000 could still be on the board but let's go through mission 500 first like let's hit 500 first and then when i chose that 500 it was that weight lifted off like i don't have to sell 10 every day like i can just go out there and be my best and show up and not have this pressure not have the stress and be able to refine that um and so i really think that journaling counseling with others you know taking it to the lord in prayer i think are some of the most helpful things to help you make those big shifts that you need to make in your life at times you know yeah and and you bring up an interesting one which um i find very difficult for myself to do which is journaling and the reason i say it's interesting is um in that podcast that i was listening to with john batiste and his wife they both do it religiously and not only do they do it individually they actually journal together that's amazing which is actually Kind of cool. I'd never heard

38:26 of that idea before. They explained that we're basically like in their own journal, they'll write a letter to the other and then they'll send a picture every day to each other of it. That's amazing. And they just both said that like both individually journaling, you start understanding things about yourself by doing that. And then when you have that moment to write that letter to your spouse, it's the same thing. You express things there. that you just may not have taken the time or not even realized to express to your spouse in another way. And it really unlocks something, right, in journaling. It's like got me all thinking, okay, I'm not going to go talk to my wife tonight. I'll be like, okay, honey, we can start journaling together.

39:06 I might not be able to make it happen, right? I might not be able to. But there is something that gets unlocked in you when you journal for you to be able to think through and process through the things that are happening. It allows you to think about the way that you're processing things. Adam Grant and Brene Brown call it thinking about thinking, right? Like metacognition. So you do more of that when you journal, and then you can start to reshape the way that you see things, the way that you see life, and start to see it as more of the process of becoming as opposed to just the end destination. So in the movie... We've already kind of talked about it, but I want to get this as we kind of fill out this arc. One of the things that Joe ends up saying to 22 is a spark isn't your purpose.

39:59 Your spark comes when you're ready to start living. Because 22 kept waiting for what is my spark? What's that thing going to be that I have to have? And then Jerry, is it Jerry? Like all the Jerrys had told Joe, like, no, no, no. Like you said, like, no, no, no. Spark isn't your purpose. You totally don't understand what a spark means at all. And he has to go through that experience to start understanding what it means. And then he communicates that to 22 and kind of unable to unlock that for her. So for you, as we're kind of coming through that arc there, you know, what's your insight there? A spark isn't your purpose. A spark comes when you're ready to start living. What's your insight there? Yeah, it's a good, I don't know. I don't. Well, I guess I don't know if this answers that question. One of my favorite moments in the movie is early on when you're watching and again Joe dies and he sees like the vision of his life and there's a scene in the vision where he's eating pie and it just he just like it's so it looks all dark and he's like my life is meaningless and he has that moment and then when he then has his realization at the end when he's playing the piano and he's reflecting like all the moments of his life that really made his life like meaningful. um when he realized that like moments with his uh with his dad yeah he's playing the piano he's playing the piano and you can see his dad's older and he's just like yeah loving yes being in that moment with yeah well yeah exactly he's with his dad he's like riding his bike and he's enjoying the sun he's with his mom after his dad passed away and like they have their feet in the in the water and then he has the moment of him eating that pie and it's like it wasn't a meaningless moment because the pie was was so delicious like

41:30 it was it was he like really savored it and like it's just so interesting that In one context, that was a meaningless moment for him. Afterwards, when he's reflecting, it was actually a very meaningful, significant moment in his life. I think it's such a powerful thing that you can find that meaning or that spark really in anything in your life. It can be watching the sky. It can be walking. It can be just having a bite of pie. I think that's one of my favorite moments of that. It's subtle, but I think it's a really beautiful scene. And I love the reframe. Yeah. Because initially when he only sees it through the lens of the spark has to be me playing the piano and doing it, not just playing it, but being in a jazz band and being successful. That's where it is all seen through that lens, literally in this case, because the lens makes it like darker. It's such a nice representation, right?

42:17 But in reality, he did experience those. And when he reframes that, those meanings were actually there and he did experience them. He just needs to reframe it and see it differently. And I think what it highlights for us is sometimes that's what it is, that the reset we need to have ends up becoming a reframe. We reset so that we can reframe the way that we're seeing things in life and seeing them with more meaning and with more purpose, appreciating the things that we have, which is kind of really done in a really beautiful way, that movie. Okay, so we're going to come back to the three actionable takeaways that we're going to have you share, okay? Cool. Three things people can do to find more fulfillment and more...

42:57 living more happiness now as opposed to having to wait to some end goal. But before we get there, we're going to have two fun segments, okay? Cool. So the first is this or that, okay? So as we always say, like, be prepared to defend your controversial picks or this or that, okay? First one, 22 or moon wind? I like 22. Yeah. Yeah. Just, like, her whole journey and just coming to the conclusion I like 22. Part of it, too, because it's Tina Fey. Yeah, yeah. Right? Like, who doesn't love Tina Fey? She had all the funny moments. She's so great. Like, the Knicks thing, you know? I love Tina Fey. Okay, Manhattan or Central Park? Oof. So we lived in Long Island for a little while, and my experience of Central Park was we went there. It was beautiful. We ran some bikes. We were biking around. Right when it got dark, dude, it got so sketchy. All these people started coming out, weed everywhere.

43:50 We're like, we've got to get out of here. So I'll probably go Manhattan on that one just because of that experience with Central Park. Which is good for me because I've been to Central Park a number of times, but it's always been in the morning or during the day. I've never been at night. It surprised us. We were like, oh, wow. Yeah, avoid it at night is what I'm hearing. I still love Central Park, so I'll keep that by avoiding it at night. Okay. Jazz club or concert hall? Probably jazz club. I think just because of my affinity for soul. Just having that experience at a jazz club. And that little vibe. Yeah. Okay, so this is right along with that. Piano or saxophone?

44:32 Piano. Do you play the piano? I did play the piano growing up. I'm not good. I've tried twice now. I got Simply Piano, that app, to try to teach it. I've done it twice, but I haven't really stuck with it either time. So one day I will. So you can maybe dabble a little bit? I'd love to be able to. But that's something I can really admire, the piano and people, just how they're doing it. It's just incredible. When I see somebody play, especially somebody highly skilled, it's just like I just sit there and wonder and awe. My goodness. There's so much talent and skill and hard work that goes into that person getting to that point where they can do that. Yeah, it's amazing. New York City or New Orleans? New York City. I have ties to New Orleans. My dad's family lives in Louisiana, so we go to Louisiana pretty often. You'll take New York City. Yeah, but I think just because I lived in Long Island, New York City. Yeah, I do like both cities, but I'd swing a little bit towards New York. Okay, well, so this might make it a tougher question this next one, okay? New York pizza or home -cooked meal? I kind of lean towards New York pizza.

45:46 Pizza's so good. It's so good. There's so many good joints. My favorite experience eating, though, was we went to a bagel joint in New York. And, like, they just had so many words I didn't even know. I was like, you can do this with bagels? Like, they were going off, dude. We were like, what? It was crazy. But it was good. Like a little hole -in -the -wall bagel. I'm going to throw one on the fly then. So New York pizza or New York bagel? Pizza. I mean, pizza is still elite. I mean, it's still amazing, right? Like, it's amazing. But a New York bagel for me, and I don't know why it is, and nobody can really explain why. New York bagels are just better than bagels in any other place. I don't know why. They're unbelievable. Unbelievable. I eat them all the time when I'm there. I can't do gluten really.

46:28 I can take a gluten pill to make me not as sick. And I take a lot of gluten pills in New York City because it's the pizza and the bagels. So I'm constantly taking these pills to try to minimize the impact of this gluten because it's so good. So good. Okay. Window seat or aisle seat? Window. Okay, your window guy. You like to look out the window? I do like to look out the window. It is like, the aisle's nice because I'm long. You know, I need leg room. But I think I lean towards the window. See, I'm aisle all the way because of that. I just, I want to be able to stretch my legs. And also, I'm the kind of, I hate to inconvenience somebody. I hate it so much. And so, if I can be in the aisle, if I got to go to the bathroom, I feel like I can. When I'm in the middle seat of the window, I will hold it that whole flight unless I am about to lose it. Because I do not want to make them get up.

47:17 Especially if you have to go twice. It's like a three -hour flight. You have to get up once. You can do once, but you can't get up again. Now you're cooked. And look, I'm over 40, and I've got to go to the bathroom a lot. It's just a reality. As you get older, you will find out in 15 years. You'll find out eventually. Okay, Disneyland or Disney World? Disneyland, actually. We went to Disney World just last year, and I was like, I think Disneyland is better. They had way more churros than Disneyland. Yes, a lot more. A lot more churros. I feel like the food generally was better. Epcot was the exception. Epcot had really cool food. That's exactly right. I feel like Disneyland is more concentrated. There's two parks. You get everything in two parks versus Disney World. You have the four, and it's all kind of spread out. And some parks are better. I feel like the two main parks in Disney World don't equal the two main parks in Disneyland. So I think Disneyland takes the edge.

48:05 Disneyland for me as well. I do love me some Epcot. Yeah, Epcot is cool. All the Disney world, like Epcot, I really have an affinity for now. The food is great. The rides are terrific. It's just something that's totally different, right? But yeah, Disneyland's amazing. Okay, movie theater or movie at home? I do love going to the theater. Just the whole experience of the theater. You're giving yourself a two -hour little, I'm just escaping. I'm going to see The Mandalorian tonight with my brother. Today? Today. Does it come out? I think it's like a little early. My realtor, he's hooking us up. Oh, man, you are getting hooked up. Oh, that should be a fun one. I'm excited. It's always going to be fun. I love the series on Disney+. It's amazing. Okay, here's a rapid fire, okay? So just first one that comes to mind. Cool. Okay? Favorite Disney movie? Soul.

48:53 Favorite? I think it's our favorite. I think it's our favorite. Love that. Favorite Disney song? Hakuna Matata. It's just as soon as you hear it. Oh, 100%. I feel like whoever sings for Simba all the time, dude, he's got pipes. So it's amazing. Oh, yeah, both the kid version and the adult version. Yeah, that's true. Favorite Disney princess? Mulan. I think Mulan's the GOAT, and I don't think it's close. She's rad. She's the best. Like, I just rewatched it for an episode that we recorded, and I'm watching it again. I'm just like, man, I love this movie. 100%. She is so great. Great songs. Mulan is awesome. Yeah. Yeah, that one's... Yeah, I love her. Favorite Disney villain? I think this is a loophole, but Wreck -It Ralph. Okay, because he is. In the game, he is absolutely the villain. There is no question he's the villain, and all he wants to do is have a hero's journey. He wants to be a hero. He's so lovable. Before Soul came out, Wreck -It Ralph was my favorite Disney movie.

49:49 I like that loophole. We have a tie too. Cause my, um, my, when I was on mutual, when I met my wife, my quote was like Brecker Ralph's quote. It's like, I'm not, I forget. I always forget. It's like, I'm not good. That's, that's not good. Anyway, but he's like, there's no one rather be than me. And like, that was my quote in my bio. And that's my wife had a quote and that's how we connected. So amazing. I love that actually. Uh, favorite Disney treat, which actually is, I'm glad I asked this because you just talked about liking the food. Yeah. Yeah. I think, uh, I'm a sucker for, like some candied almonds or something, like those cinnamon, sugar, almond. Those are amazing. I thought you were going to go churro. Churros, I mean, yeah. I was trying to be different. I was trying to stand out a little bit. I want to, but I can't. Because when I go, I just want to have a churro. And there's no other food there that I'm just like, I have to have a churro. Other things I love. There's plenty of things like that. Macarons, when they have them, unbelievable. Candied almonds are great. Corn dogs there are really delicious.

50:48 You've got to get the jumbo turkey leg. Oh, yeah. But churro is what I was coming back to. Yeah, churro is amazing. One's just never enough either. It's dangerous. Whenever I go on, my wife's always like, well, you want to just get a couple and we'll all share. I'm like, nobody in this family wants to share. We're getting six. We're getting six. Everyone's going to have their own, and everyone's going to eat every bite of it. And if somebody doesn't, guess who's going to finish it? I am. Favorite musician? Favorite musician? Wow. I don't know. I feel like being in basketball, rap is kind of a big rap guy. Totally. So I think Eminem was one that I was just like, I don't know. I feel like he was in his prime when I was young. So I kind of always admired him. Whenever he drops a new album, I'm always like, I just love his whole journey. Anyway, his whole ride is so interesting. I like J. Cole quite a bit.

51:45 He's kind of more... relatable, you know? I don't even know who he is. I'm going to go with Eminem. Yeah, go with Eminem. Eminem. All right, Slim Shady. Favorite book? Favorite book? I think the book that, one of the books that made the biggest impact on me was Stillness is the Key, Ryan Holiday, which hits a lot of the same principles of soul and kind of ties things together just about, yeah, just finding presence and living a meaningful life and it doesn't always come down to the big accomplishment. you know, how you define success. Yeah. Okay. Then the last, the last rapid fire, this might not be so rapid. We'll see. We'll see. What is your number one piece of marriage advice to people engaged to be married? What's the number one thing you would tell somebody who is engaged? I think my number one thing is get marriage checklist. Like honestly, get. get deep before you get married. I'm like, get deep. Talk about your communication. I was talking about finance. I want sexual intimacy.

52:41 Talk about all these different areas of your life that are going to, that you're going to be like combining together. It's a big move that you're making. And so get on the same page and just have those conversations and see each other in those different lights. Work through that. Like I'd say like we had, we'd always, when we had our podcast, we had a whole checklist. There's like. you know, 50 to 60 questions and people are always hitting us up and we're sending it out to people. And I feel like that's one of the biggest things that will just help you just to have a good foundation, have some deep conversations and help you move on into a married life. Love it. Okay. So to wrap up two things I want to get from you, any kind of final thoughts about the topic or the movie and then move into your three actual takeaways. Yeah. Final thoughts.

53:27 I took some notes. I thought you would. I could tell. I was like, he's got some more to say that I haven't asked him. And I definitely want to give a runway for that. Yeah. I don't know if I have any other big ones. I really, I guess I'll end with this. One of my favorite scriptures in the New Testament is the book of Luke, where Jesus says, fear not little flock. It is in your father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. And I think that's such a beautiful. moment in the scriptures and just idea that it's like, I think too often we get worked up about things in our lives and we're so going about doing all these little things we feel like are so important. And, um, I just really, at the end of the day, like just going about just being your best, showing up every day, trying to be present, trying to serve others. I think that's one of my favorite takeaways and something that would really hit me. I just watched soul again yesterday to kind of prep for this, but, um, it was just like, you got to get out of your side of yourself and serve others and try to find ways to make impact in their people's lives. Cause it's so easy for us to become so selfish and just be thinking about ourselves all the time. Um, but getting outside of that and trying to serve someone else.

54:33 And ideally your spouse, like that we're talking about, this is like, and that kind of, I guess, takes me into a takeaway is like finding a moment to serve someone close to you. Ideally your spouse, if you're married, if not, you know, a family member, whoever that goes outside of what you normally. do you know and and serve them and think about them and try to take someone off their plate i think that's a great lesson from seoul and just a great lesson uh for life you know for sure so first actual takeaway is obviously find something this week yeah to serve somebody else in a way that's outside what you would normally do yeah a great one yeah give me two more um number two you are you blue i don't know if your kids are old enough for bluey absolutely okay okay blue is amazing blue is amazing i love blue oh yeah it's incredible i've seen i my kids are right in the blue age i've seen like i've said like 10 times but uh i i think finding a moment to Find beauty and find stillness and I think I remember that episode we watched a day was When the dad bandit is having like his he's pretending to be alive for the very first time He likes he's a leaf and he's like this leaf is amazing like zooms in it's just this moment and so I feel like just inviting people to find that in your life whether it's the sunrise, the sunset, or it's the mountain. Like, we're surrounded.

55:45 These mountains are incredible. You see these mountains in the morning? Like, it's amazing. Or even at sunset. Like, just find a moment and just, like, take it in and just appreciate. Or it's listening to a song or watching a movie. Like, that is incredible. And just appreciating that and letting that bring you into stillness, into the present moment. I'm going to call it find a moment of wonder this week. That's our number two. Love it. Okay. What's our number three? Number three, I wrote it down. Let me pull it up. Let me see what my third one was. Oh, I guess my third one is kind of the same idea, but just, like, not taking being so seriously. You know, like, zooming out a little bit and, like, even laughing. I remember something, like, when doing door -to -door sales. Like, whenever we'd get an objection, I would just have the biggest smile. Like, they're like, oh, yeah, I'm going to talk to my wife. Just, like, biggest smile. Like, just, like, rolling with the punches and just smiling and laughing through them. I think it's just, like, the best way to live, you know? So my third one is. I think that's a great one. So number three would be sometime this week when you face maybe something that's difficult or hard, try to take it on with a smile on your face. I like that. Because everybody's going to have something hard. Like every week we do. Even if it's something small that's hard, it's still something that's hard or it's a trial or it's an objection. But if we can encounter that moment and say, no, I got this, and that smile helps to remind us, like, I got this. This is not that big a deal. I can do this. It's going to be fine. I think that's a great one. Love it. Love it. Well, Nate Dogg, Nate the Great,

57:16 Hoop, Hooper, Hoopster, Hoop Dogg? Hoop Daddy. Hoop Daddy. That was my favorite one, Hoop Daddy. It's been a pleasure visiting with you. Some great things we talked about for a wonderful movie, and I think there's some things that people can put into place this week. We find a little bit more joy this week. We find a little bit more spark. in the desire to find fulfillment, find success, find happiness in the moments we have today. Thanks, brother. Thanks, Ryan. Appreciate it. As you leave this conversation, remember that yes, the past can hurt and you can either run from it or you can learn from it. So here's to learning and finding joy in the journey. See you real soon.