Lion King and Healing Trauma | Alton Fitzgerald White

0:00 I grew up in public housing in Cincinnati, the projects. And she said this in front of the class. I remember thinking, is she talking to me? Did she really say this? That little painfully shy kid who was abused and teased and bullied became the king. But that's one of the things I love about Lion King is that we're all Scar, we're all Mufasa, we're all Simba. It's all about tapping into the different parts of yourself. And we get to define who we are. When it happens with Simba... It's something, there's a cut, there's a break in your life. And there's a before the event and an after. I mean, I was pure love as a kid. I was naive. And no matter what happened to me, I always saw the bright side. I was born with an optimism. In every creature, in every star, in your reflection, they live in you. Welcome to Yes and Land, where we say yes to the reality of yesterday and today, and we say and to the possibility, growth, and imagination of tomorrow.

1:19 All right, welcome everybody to our next episode of Yes, Ant -Land. We are very excited today. We are joined by somebody who has had a storied career, Alton Fitzgerald White, who played Mufasa on Broadway for more than 4 ,000 performances, which is just a feat in and of itself. But that's, of course, not the only thing to his story. He has many things to his story, which we will dive into today. uh struggled with uh some some different things in his childhood which we will kind of go over and found his way to playing an amazing role uh but also to doing a lot of other amazing things and now today no longer performing as mufasa on broadway but he is an author of an amazing book called my pride right alton that's what we got that's what it is do you have that there with you hold that up my pride mastering life's daily performance Which is a must read.

2:14 I read it. I read the whole thing and just loved it. I actually consume my books on Audible. He reads it himself. And as you might imagine, since he played Mufasa on Broadway, has a terrific voice and a terrific reading voice, which he actually does talk about in the book as well, which was not necessarily something you thought was a great strength when you were growing up. But we'll talk about that. we'll talk about that right um and now he does uh public speaking and presenting and does things like singing with the boston pops which he was just doing last week and uh so just really excited to have this great conversation to learn from somebody with so much life experience uh who hopefully today is going to be a little bit like a mufasa for us and help to impart some wisdom today ryan you have forgotten me oh see that's exactly what we want yeah see now i need i need to like i need to cut that right and i need to like put that as my ringtone or like at night when i'm getting ready like have my meditation before i go to bed like that's what i need right oh it's amazing one of the great lines right from uh lion king both the the original movie and then of course the the broadway version uh which is just a favorite for many people certainly was a favorite for mine growing up um i was born in 82 and so lion king was like the heart of my youth and was just Such an important thing for me that I just, I love the Lion King, like so many kids in my generation. So, well, before we start diving into you playing Mufasa on Broadway, you know, take us back to a little bit about your youth. Did you say that you were born in 1982? Yes, born in 82. This is the year I graduated

3:46 high school. My son, my child. Hey, you know, once we're this age, you know, we're about the same, right? It all kind of blends in once you mature. It does. I always kind of say, you know, once you're about 40, like 40s, 50s, like it's all the same, right? It's like it blends together. But, you know, when you graduated high school, 82, so you experienced the 80s, right, through and through. Some great things from the 80s. I'm a little biased. What's your opinion about the greatest decade of music? What would you say that is? I'm biased. I mean, 80s for me, because, like, that's when I was really coming to age. We had all the great dance music, feel -good music, music to make you want to move.

4:34 And we just started to, like, you know, be, like, more socially conscious music coming up. But for the most part, a lot of it was the British invasion. There wasn't a live instrument to be found. It was all synthesizers. But it all tickled your brain and made you want to move. So that's one of my favorite periods. Again, I'm biased. It's the 90s for me because that's when I started listening to my own music. So my parents were not a lot older, but a little bit older when they had me. So they were more 60s and 70s, which I have a great appreciation for. But they didn't really transition much into the 80s. And then I start listening when I'm 8, 9, 10, and it's the 90s. And then suddenly you have, you know, all the wonderful things that come out of the 90s. So for me, I'm like totally biased. I love 90s music. I think so much came from the 90s.

5:19 I'll give you an example. But I will stay. Give me an example of a couple of groups that you love from the 90s. Well, interestingly enough, I was actually going to talk to you about this. One that I loved so much was Boyz II Men. And in part because of the vocal harmonies they had, but also their style. Because I believe, Elton, that when you were a young lad, you liked to dress a little bit nicer, if I'm not mistaken. I did, absolutely, yeah. You dressed for everything. Everything was an occasion. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I was the same way. I loved their style. And so when I was in junior high school, I was a kid dressing in button -down shirts and slacks when other kids were, you know, shorts and T -shirts. And so I definitely got teased for that a little bit. I was that guy in high school, too, who would wear a tie and a blazer with jeans.

6:04 They'd be like, why are you so formal? I'm like... But I just discovered GQ magazine in my mid -teens. So I was like, wow, it's a chance to be individual. Because as men, we don't have that many options. You know, a haircut, mustache, no face, hairless. Clothes really, really help to kind of your personality. And I see that it's hung over. Because, dude, every time I've met you, you've been sharply addressed. So good for you. I appreciate that. I have always enjoyed dressing up. There's just something about dressing up that makes me feel a little bit sharper. It feels a little bit more like, okay, I'm professional. I can do this. Kind of like empowers me, so to speak. And people tease me, but I actually like wearing a suit.

6:46 I think it's fun. I think it's comfortable. I tell when I mentor kids who are about auditioning, because auditioning is tough. You can have all the time in the world, but not everybody auditions. I always tell kids. Wear whatever makes you feel like a million bucks going into that movie. It's how you feel is the most important thing, right? Make sure it's appropriate for the occasion. But if it makes you feel like a million bucks, that's what you wear. Because confidence is key, right? Yeah, I think that's great advice. And I think that advice applies as well for somebody going into an interview, right? You know, you do need to understand what that particular job should look like as far as that goes. But you do want to be comfortable because a lot of times people will get in their head about it. You know, interestingly enough, I actually I learned that when I was trying to apply for my first job.

7:36 My brother, who's a year and a half older than I, he and I were up for the same job. It was as we call a sweeper at an elementary school. Right. So you have the gender and then, you know, they hire these teenage kids to be sweepers. And so we both went in for interview. I dressed in a shirt and tie. He dressed in just casual wear. And afterwards, the feedback was they hired him because that was more of what they were looking for. And I was a little bit too formal. And I was like, well, I guess I didn't understand the assignment. Yeah, yeah, gotcha. Yeah, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. But still, you did your thing. You know, it's about making a choice. I did, you know, I stayed true to who I was. Yeah, yeah. Yep. And then, you know, a few months later, I applied for a different sweeper job. That person's personality probably matched mine better because then I got that job and I dressed the same way.

8:20 So it was great. It all came around. So let's take us back to you growing up in Cincinnati. And, you know, take us just through a little bit of that. I mean, there's certainly a lot. And anybody who's listening, you need to, like, read the entire book because there's so much more about understanding about where Alton came from and what things, you know, really shaped who he is. But give us a little bit of a snippet of what life was like for you growing up initially and some of the challenges you faced. I grew up in public housing in Cincinnati, the projects. Youngest of seven kids. the only boy in the household.

9:02 So myself and my father were the only men in the house, and it was really challenging being raised by women. I mean, it served me later in my life, but as a kid, you know, I was teased about it. You know, when I would get into a fight, as all kids do, they go get their big brother to defend them, and I went to get a sister. So I was teased about that as well. And as a result, you know, I was raised to be a very polite kid. very mannerable kid, which again served me later. But it was also a little bit effeminate because I had such a heavy female influence, which also served me because girls always liked me. Teachers always loved me because I had that, I had kind of a built -in strength, but I had a nice openness about myself that was attractive to people. But again, I was teased by the boys about that. because the girls were just naturally attracted to me.

9:58 So there was a lot of stuff going on. My father, unfortunately, suffered from alcoholism. So the only other person in my house who looked like me was an alcoholic. And I often felt like I was competing with the alcohol for his attention, and the alcohol would win. So I really kind of felt like I was on my own. I'm really grateful that I was attracted to order, because home was so chaotic. You know, with an alcoholic parent, when you open the door, you don't know what you're going to get. Are they going to be sober? And when my father was sober, he was glued to the TV. And, you know, we all tiptoed around thinking that that would affect his drinking. And then sometimes you come home, he's thinking, okay, he's probably watching TV and he would be on a bender. And it's like, so dealing with that kind of, those kinds of inconsistencies made school really important to me, really attractive.

10:50 I loved. the order i love showing up on time i loved bringing my assignment i love the validation that i got from teachers doing a good job and i'm so grateful that somehow i was attracted to that kind of validation as opposed to being like the other kids because i could never be like the other kids i knew i was different i knew that i was i was sensitive i knew that i was an artist even before i had the words to describe it and those are all things i was teased about that again later served me and thank goodness teachers saw and helped to bring bring out of me what do you think the difference was for you in in that because what we see i think sometimes unfortunately happen in those situations because we we all have this innate sense and need to belong sense of belonging is one of the core human needs so sometimes what will happen is kids we just want to be a part of it we want to be accepted this is a very important time And I think sometimes what happens is then that's why certain kids will get involved in the wrong things, like games. For you, what was that difference of that you found your sense of belonging with, you know, getting the praise from the teachers and doing great work there and that kind of stuff, as opposed to being influenced for doing things that would have been more negative, that would have gotten you into trouble? What do you think was kind of the key for you? I really feel like it's sort of like my destiny, to be totally honest, right? Because I tried to be. a bad kid. I tried to do stuff and I would always get caught. And I realized earlier that other kids can do that stuff. Other boys can be bad and do this and

12:21 do that. I couldn't get away with it. My higher power was like, nope, this is not your path. So I was rejected in those ways. And again, looking back, I'm so grateful. I was pulled to like, because as a kid wanting to belong and looking for validation anywhere you can get it, I wasn't really getting it from home. But my father was doing this thing. My mother, who is my, one of my soulmates, was overwhelmed. with having all the kids and my father. And I will say that in spite of my father's alcoholism, there was tremendous love in the household. So I never not felt loved. But as a little boy, a little black boy in particular, I needed validation. And when I got from the teachers, I was like, who cares? I'm getting this something that I need that I don't even have words for yet. And that propelled me to be a fantastic student throughout my entire...

13:13 school years. So I think part of it was just my destiny. Because I tried. I tried to be a bad kid because I wanted to be a part of a group, wanted to be accepted, but I was always isolated and like, okay. And that's when my fantasies and my dreams really, really took over. You know? And you were pulled and called to the stuff that you ultimately ended up doing, right? Because Memory Serves, one of the things you talked about was finding kind of private times and even a closet to sing. And you may, and if Memory Serves too, you may have even learned some dances. I don't know if it was from Michael Jackson. But yeah, tell us about that. So, you know, in your, you know, being called to something or kind of where your destiny was taking you. Talk us through how that started to evolve with you feeling drawn to the arts and the singing and dancing. Well, I'm grateful that as a family, we would watch television. We listened to the radio together.

14:06 When we all cleaned the house, we had the radio blasting. It was a station that played all kinds of music. Pop, rock, jazz, country. Of course, the Motown sound. Everything, which influences my singing to this day. There was that. We also watched TV. And TV was like my best friend. when i didn't have friends to play with i would watch my favorite shows gilligan's island um a whole all day after school stuff but at night we would watch variety shows which really sort of saved my life because i got to see my favorite performers and then i could see them be interviewed after they performed and see that they spoke so well that they were intelligent they were not just performers they were they seemed to be well -rounded people and i thought i want to be like that so they became my first role model And I don't know any young Black boy during the 60s who didn't want to be Michael Jackson or one of the Jackson 5. So we would watch, say we watched the Ed Sullivan show, and the Jackson 5 would be on there, and I could pick up choreography really easily because I was so hungry for it. And I would go to the storage closet, which was the only place I had to myself, and I'd put on these big concerts and pretend I was Michael Jackson and my father cleaned buildings for a living. This big thing called a buffer. The big circular thing with the smaller circle in the middle. It's the perfect platform. Top of that was my stage. I would take the cord and that was my microphone. And I would step down and sing to the girls in the audience

15:37 all in silence. I didn't know that I could sing. When I did start to sing, it wasn't because I knew I sounded good. I love the sensation of singing. I love how it made me feel. So what started off as a fantasy. eventually became what I was doing for a living. So again, I'm grateful that instead of going to fighting against the grain and going, no, I'm going to be accepted by the bad kids because I so desperately want to be a part of them, I'm going to honor my body, honor my mind, and take that energy elsewhere. And that's where TV and radio and the arts really came into play and really helped to save me.

16:18 Yeah. What was the inflection point for you or kind of the experience or experiences that helped bring that to life? So you're starting to feel this and you're doing it, but you're doing it in silence and you're not actually out loud. When did that finally that that flip that switch turn on where it's like, oh, I actually can do this. I actually can sing. I actually could perform. Oh, man, I joined the church choir and I was so terrified of being in front of anybody. I mean, really, I. When I talk about it, I feel those feelings again of like, oh, my God, I can't imagine ever sharing this with anybody because it was my secret. But I used to usher it at my church, and I would kind of scope the choir out and see if it was safe, and then I found out that they would take anybody. We didn't have to audition. I thought, oh, wow, I can finally sing with other people. So I joined the choir, and after I joined, they were like, well, you know, at some point, everybody has to do a solo.

17:12 I was like, I'll worry about that later. They go around the whole choir. They get to me, and I'm like, I'll pass. I'm good. They come back around again. They're like, Alton, you have to do this. And I was like, I can't. They were like, you have to. And I mean, the choir teacher was so patient with me. I mean, I refused to sing in front of anybody. I would wait till everybody left and sing with just her. Eventually, it went from a whisper to singing louder and singing louder. She goes, now you got to sing with the choir because I sang the lead and they backed me up. And I remember that day came. And at this point, everybody in the choir is like, really, dude? Because nobody can understand how you feel.

18:00 But they were like, what's the big deal? It was a huge deal to me. Because at that point, I was being teased and bullied about so many things in my young life. I thought, if my secret gets out and I'm... teased about this, I don't know what I'll do. I might break, you know? And I remember, you know, finally kind of whispering through it, and they were like, really? We waited for this? And I was like, okay. But then came the Sunday morning. I remember, like, not sleeping the night before, thinking, how am I going to listen to all these people? I don't know. I kind of trust the choir at this point. And I got up there, and they called my name, and I remember just looking at the ceiling, and, you know, kind of, like, sort of closing my eyes. doing the best I could. And it was over. There were some amens. There were some pause. And a woman that I really trusted who led the children ushers came up to me with this look on her face, Ryan.

18:54 Like, she was like, out and wild. I was like, what? Did I not do well? She was like, your voice. The quality of your voice. I didn't know what she was talking about, but she was like, you've got something special. I was like, really? And that was what I needed. Like, one person that I trusted. And the look on her face, the way she responded to my voice made me go, wow, like this thing I love might actually love me as well. And then the journey became, how do I get out of the way of it? How do I not go over my fear? There's no going over. How do I work through this fear and get to the other side and find the gift that this is? And it's just a practice, you know, humming around the house, humming around friends and going, okay, I got to release the shame. And eventually, the next time I did a solo, I was ready. And then at that point, I was in junior high. And they always needed, you know, you do a spring festival and a winter festival.

19:53 You know, the choir would do some stuff. And it was always female solo and male solo. And the male soloist was a year older than me. So in my last year of junior high, they needed a guy. And I was like, I think I might be able to do this. So I auditioned. But I kind of went through the same process because now I'm with junior high. It's a whole other thing. I'm like. I went through the whole thing of, like, you know, whispering in her ear and, like, waiting until the class dismissed and having to sing in front of the whole class. And then the night came, and I was like, okay, do it. It's now or never. And then it was on from there. So, I mean, I just love this journey that you had. And there's a couple of things that I heard in there that I think are really impactful. And one of those is I think the role of, you know, maybe it's a mentor. Maybe it's just, you know, somebody that you do have some level of trust with that shows kindness and encouragement. Yes, absolutely.

20:44 And how impactful that can be. And when you think about that. Are there any other moments you think about where the care and kind of what I would call deep kindness that somebody showed you help you feel empowered to kind of find that destiny of yours? Oh, God, in so many ways. I mean, really, teachers. Teachers are my hero. I mean, really, teachers really. I mean, there's certain things that I did on my own. I had to tap into my courage and go forth. But I had. teachers to guide me, teachers to point me out and go, no, you sit over here. You're different than the other kids, which let me know that I was smarter than I realized. And even in terms of talent, I would audition for some things and then somebody would go, no, no, no. I remember that because I really wanted to be a dancer. I love movement. And I would go to my dance calls and they'd hear me sing and go, no, no, you're over here with the singers.

21:38 You can do both, but not many people can do both well. So these were all people who became mentors and validation. Somebody who could see things in me that I couldn't see myself. That's very, very important for anyone to have, for everyone to have someone who sees the potential that they can't quite see themselves. Yeah, for sure. You know, and when you're kind of going through these experiences growing up where you did in Cincinnati and being bullied, what would you, when you think back on that, what do you think is like the hardest? Trial that you faced during that time. What was the most difficult thing that you had to overcome? Okay, are we going to go there? Let's let's go there. Let's go there. We want to get deep. We want to get a lot of the hardest thing was dealing with sexual abuse as a kid. Was being taken advantage of because I was such a. I mean, I was pure love as a kid. I was naive. And no matter what happened to me, I always saw the bright side. I was born with an optimism that as an adult, I've learned to kind of like balance with realism, but still keep my positive attitude. That was tough when those things happened and I couldn't tell anyone because that made me become an adult faster than I needed to. And to have that introduced to me.

23:00 And to not be able to have my own journey with that and have it forced upon me, you know, was not a cool thing. And then dealing with the secret of not being able to tell anyone. And also knowing that if I told any adult that, even as a kid, before I had the words to describe things, I knew that the ripple effect would be amazing in a not the best way. So I kept it to myself. And again, I believe that I was able to channel that into my heart. into my passion um and it's something as actors as creative people we get to do we get to like work out our stuff and share at the same time if we choose to perceive it that way yeah well i mean when i when i asked that question i i didn't have any idea that was actually the case and i'm so first off i'm so sorry um that that was something you had to experience um and um you know sorry i'm almost have to take a moment i just that is such a Oh, it's just such a tough thing for somebody to have to experience and that you had to go through. What got you through that? Faith. You know, a faith that I feel like I was just kind of born with. I really feel like I was born with a positive attitude.

24:22 And even as an adult, you know, through the help of therapy and meditation, I've been able to forgive those people because I'm thinking, You know, I had this done to me by other kids as well as adults. It's like somebody did it to them. You know, and it's like so that I'm grateful that I was able to work through my stuff and then get to the other side of the anger and resentment and find compassion. You know, forgiveness came at the end of that and then compassion, which was like a gift that I didn't expect to go. Oh, wow. It didn't do that to me because. who I am. They did it because of who they are. And then beyond that was like, I wonder if someone did that to them. Which is like real forgiveness.

25:10 Yeah. And I'm the kind of person who wants to squeeze as much out of life as I possibly can. I'm one of those who if there's a problem comes up, I'm going to deal with it and I want to get back to the good times ASAP. Well, I mean, I thank you for your courage to share that, your vulnerability in sharing that. You know, it's my hope. Whenever on this podcast we talk to people who've gone through really hard things, it's my hope that somebody that's listening, that's going through a hard season, can receive kind of that strength from somebody else who's gone through it and know that there's light at the end of that really dark tunnel. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if nothing else. That little painfully shy kid who was abused and teased and bullied became the king. You know, and that's one of the things I love about Lion King is that, you know, we're all Scar, we're all Mufasa, we're all Simba. It's all about having to deal with different parts of yourself. And we get to define who we are. Things happen to us, but we get the ultimate decision. Am I going to stay stuck in this trauma or am I going to go through it? get to the other side and see what what life is beyond it that's a choice that we all get to make if we choose to do so yeah you know it it kind of takes me to and i hope that this isn't um in any way um insensitive to that experience that you just had because i don't want to compare anything to it because nothing can compare to it but if we're taking lessons from the lion

26:40 king what it reminds me of is kind of where i was actually going to go next which is the experiences of Simba, right? Where, you know, at the beginning of the show, I mean, Simba's this free loving kid who just can't wait to be king, you know, and have a great time with his buddies. And he's, you know, goofing off in this elephant graveyard and all these things. And then his dad dies and he believes it's his fault. Even though it wasn't. Of course, we all know the story, right? It was Scar. It wasn't his fault at all, but he believes it was. And Scar has tricked him, has manipulated him to think in it. And then Scar says, run away, Simba. Run away and never return. And I wonder, you know, is that sometimes what we experience when we have shame and guilt and it's not actually our fault? And yet we do and we feel like we have to run away. Was there any part of that that you experienced in that difficult time?

27:40 The only running away I did was, I mean, I did become, like my mother talks about, she remembers, you know, like me going from being happy -go -lucky and then suddenly I was very sad. When I look at pictures of me as a kid, at a certain point, I'm not smiling. I do look kind of like detached because I was keeping a secret. I couldn't be fully who I was. And it's sort of like when it happens with Simba, suddenly there's a cut, there's a break in your life. Yes. And there's a before the event and an after. And we all have those definite moments because we've all experienced trauma. We all have that moment when it's like, oh, I am no longer the child I used to be, the teenager I used to be, the adult I used to be because of this kind of trauma. But I feel like, and I only speak for myself, that life is always trying to push me toward light. So there are different signs that I receive over the years of like, now might be a time to deal with that.

28:40 Now might be a time to have an even brighter life. I know things are great right now, but they could actually be better if you go back and deal with your personal stuff. Because material things, anything outside of us, that's one thing. And I think it's really easy to get defined by the things outside of us. But the real beauty, the real wealth is inner peace. and inner knowledge so i feel like life is always trying to get us to go okay this is great you've done all of this you've got this blah blah but like how are you and that's something that i've always wanted like great yeah well it actually happened i never forget when when i was doing the saigon my first broadway show understudying hinton battle the great hinton battle um who won his third tony award playing john in the saigon i was his understudy after he won the tony uh you do eight shows a week on broadway After he won the Tony, he went down to doing six, and they gave me two of his shows. He left after the first year, and then I took over the role. And I remember thinking, okay, great. Now things are going to finally be great. Because at that point, I was kind of running, you know, using the arts, using success as sort of like a pill to deal with my past.

29:52 I never forget the day after I had breakfast with a group of friends to kind of celebrate. You take them over the role, and I was like, you know, like, what's wrong with you? I was like, I don't. I understand. They're like, what's up? I said, when are things going to finally be okay? I thought that once, you know, getting this incredible Broadway show, I thought that would do it. Getting two shows a week of Hinton's, I thought it would do it. Now I'm taking over the role. What is it going to take? That's when her friend said, you might want to think about therapy. And I thought, okay. And that's when I really started to go, okay. It's not about what my life looks like. It's about how I feel. The real wealth is knowing yourself. So I feel like that's a call that we all get. And the more successful you become, in some ways, the easier it is to use them as distractions, to pull away from yourself, to be defied by those. But I want both. I want the success, but I also want to be present for it. I don't want to be using this as an excuse for that. I want to go, no, I'm present so I can enjoy the success. I can enjoy this trip. I can enjoy this concert and not be running away from anything. And I think so many times in our culture, we see like it is some destination that we're going for and that's going to be what brings it. And I think to some degree, it's sports that does it, right? And I love sports.

31:16 I enjoy sports really, but it's... You got to win the championship. And when you win the championship, it is the most elation you could ever have. And so that's what you think of, like, oh, it's about the championship. And in life, it's just not, right? In life, it's what are we doing along the path to grow, to be who we really are, right? To find our destiny like you did, to find what brings that joy to us during the process, in the process of becoming, not just the end goal. Because there is no there. I mean, I'm in New York City, right? The next one. The city was on fire that weekend. Oh, my God. And it's like, then people go back to their regular lives because the celebrations die down and you're left with you. We are the constant in our lives. You know, things come and go, championships, but, like, we are the 24 -7 with ourselves. And that's the ultimate. That's the ultimate. Yeah. absolutely and you know one of the things going back to kind of your role in this saigon in in your book one of the things you mentioned was when that kind of happened you had some people i believe this was the story you had some people some friends that maybe during the celebration were a little bit negative and kind of warning you like yeah you know watch your back or hey you know it's gonna be coming for you now and and i think at that time you you may have had a mentor who couldn't give you the advice of like don't listen to the projections of others because that's where that negativity comes from yeah that's a huge thing that i share with all of my friends the young

32:47 kids that i'm kind of mentoring and my adult friends like do not allow yourself to have other people's issues projected onto you and it's really tricky with artists because we're naturally sensitive um and we're always seeking some kind of validation as part of the job it's part of like did you like it how did i sound would you you know that whole thing Which, again, is why I think learning to validate yourself is the ultimate, because then when somebody compliments you, you can just go, thank you. Not with anything. But yeah, at this party, I was moving from Chicago to New York City to start rehearsals for Miss Saigon, the original company, which was already hit before it opened. There was a lot of controversy surrounding it with the casting, so it drove the box office to a $10 million advance, which in 1991 was huge and broke all kinds of records. I'm at my party, and some friends, these weren't my friends, clearly some of my friends brought some guests, and they were like, well, you know, just be careful in New York, you know, watch out for this, watch out for that, watch out for this, watch out for that. I remember, like, someone, my mentor was at the party, he was like, what's wrong with you? I was like, you know, I'm excited, like, man, I keep, people keep telling me, like, to be scared and, you know, not to wear this because somebody will snatch the gold chain off your neck, and he was like, Alton? You're not that kind of a person. You're a positive person. You're a positive thinker. You look for the positive things in life. At the same time, you're smart.

34:14 That will not be your experience. So don't take that on. And that was just what I needed to hear. Like, oh, yeah, I'm not like them. This is their own stuff. But up until then, I was really like, am I going to go to New York, like, more terrified than excited? But again, in terms of mentoring, your question earlier. Having validation when you trust is priceless. It changed everything for me. Yeah. How do you differentiate just for you in your life? And maybe this would be advice that we're giving to somebody else. How would you differentiate between... those who are giving you advice that's helpful, right? Because sometimes it's helpful to be aware of certain things that happen and the stuff that's just negativity that's their own projections on you that you shouldn't listen to. How do you differentiate between those things? Always consider the source. Who's saying this? Because when I was younger, somebody would say these kind of things to me and I'd get all worked up and go, I don't respect this person.

35:17 I don't even know this person. But it triggers something in me, but then I go, oh, wait a minute. They're trying to project their things onto me, and I have a choice to accept it or not. I don't accept it. So now, and it takes practice, but now I've practiced so much in my life that my instincts kick in and I go, oh, I know what this is. I know how to excuse myself. Like, I'm not going to be an audience for things that you need to work on on your own. And I'm not your friend. to, to, for you to dump those things on. So I've learned to find a nice tactful way to go, oh, no, to protect my energy, to set boundaries around my positivity. Yeah, I love that. I love that.

35:57 You know, one of the things, too, talking about your positivity, one of the things I was struck in, in your book was, I think there was a time, and I don't remember if it was in New York or somewhere else, but that you in essence were were robbed or had your your wallet and stuff stolen like three times in this really short period of time right can you share that with us dude it was like my first time in chicago at on an agent who wanted me i was doing a tour of dream girls and he we were playing in new haven which is not far from new york and um the female lead the show her agent was she was from new york and her agent came up to see us and was like hey i think you're talented i would love to represent you. And I said, I'm not moving to New York without a job. Chicago is a great theater town. Whether you're working or not, it's still the Midwest, so it's still affordable.

36:44 And it was great regional theater happening there. And he said, I said, but if you submit me for things, I will come to New York to audition. So the first time I took the Greyhound and stopped in Cleveland where one of my sisters lived at the time. And she brought me a meal and I'm like, I got to watch the time. I can't miss this bus. And she's talking and talking and talking. And we got. Wrapped up, next thing I know, I missed the bus. So all of my friends were on the bus. So I wanted to join the audition in the clothes I had. Second time, I took the train. I was sleeping and somebody stole my bag. So for Miss Saigon, I thought, I'm going to scrape some money together and I'm going to fly. I'm not taking any chances.

37:27 And it's really kind of magical because I was doing a show in... And I was in the ensemble of a show in Chicago at the time, way out in the burbs. And we had two days, Monday and Tuesday. So my audition was Monday afternoon. I flew in Monday morning, went to the audition that afternoon. And they said, hey, your agent said that you're supposed to be flying back to Chicago tonight, but we want you to come to the dance call. Can you change your plans? I was like, absolutely. So I got on the phone, changed my flight, went to the dance call that evening. and then flew back to Chicago. And it was kind of wild because because of the controversy with Miss Saigon, they were threatening to cancel it because the actors' union didn't like certain parts of it.

38:14 And this all drove the box office up. And I remember, again, another projection. And one of the guys I met at the dance call was like, because I'm excited, like, oh, my God, we made it down because it went from 50 guys to 20. And I was like, man, this is so exciting. He's like, yeah, well, don't get too excited. This is my fourth dance call, and there's no guarantee that it's even going to happen. And I was like, wonk, wonk, wonk. I was like, oh, well. So I came back to Chicago like, okay, well, who knows if it's even going to happen. And I just kind of let it go, which is hard to do. And then that same night, I got the call, and I booked it, and I will be understudying one of my heroes into battle. And looking back on it, I see... They were always tested, right?

38:59 So that first time when my stuff was stolen, am I still passionate? Do I still want to do this? Am I willing to try this again? Okay, let me try the train this time. Happened with the train. Okay, I get another call. Hmm. Is this going to stop me? No, I want this. And this is just what I have to do to get it done. I flew. So when the reward came, I was able to go, thank goodness I stayed present for myself. For my passion. I passed the test. And the result was beyond my wildest dream. I mean, going from the ensemble in the theater in the suburbs of Chicago to suddenly I'm going to be understudying my hero in the biggest Broadway show at the time.

39:44 Those kind of leaves can only happen if you keep showing up for yourself. And have boundaries around other people's opinions. Yeah. And then when those opportunities do come, That you've prepared yourself. Exactly. That you can take advantage of. Absolutely. Because sometimes, you know, sometimes we miss those because we're just, we're not prepared. We're distracted. We let other people's negativity bog us down. And then suddenly this great opportunity passes us by and we don't even realize it. And also, whatever your passion is, nobody's going to understand it but you. You can explain it to the person you love the most, but it's for you. It's specifically for you. So I would say, you know, I learned early. Instead of trying to prove it to you, let me just show you. I'm not going to show you because of you. I'm going to show you because of me. Before we jump back in, can I ask you a quick favor? If you're enjoying the journey so far, will you like, rate, and subscribe to our show? It helps us reach more people like you. We can design and create and build the most wonderful place in the world, but it takes people to make the dream a reality. One of the things that you said in your book is that passion has to be harnessed correctly um or it could lead to burnout yeah and so when we think about that you know obviously we started out this this this podcast and one of the things that you're maybe most famous for is performing more than 4 000 times as mufasa which is just so you know exactly the number i love this like it's so many and

41:15 so you know one of the things that I was thinking about when it comes to this is some work by Dr. Angela Duckworth. She wrote a book called Grit, which I just love. She talked about the difference between high performers or high achievers, and she categorizes it as those that have grit, which is the power of passion plus perseverance. And so I think about this idea of like passion, but it could lead to burnout. One of the things she said is enthusiasm is common. Endurance is rare. So for you, like, take us through, like, first off, how did you get to that point where You were in the position to be able to get that role as the king, as Mufasa. Then also that you didn't get burned out with 4 ,308. Is that what we said?

41:56 Yeah. My goodness. Because burnout could come so easily with that many performances. Well, there's a couple of things that came into play with that. I love theater. I loved the validation that I got doing my job consistently well. I love the benefits. You know, the status, the paycheck, all those wonderful things, the beautiful life I was able to build. But then beyond that, you know, getting back to what we were talking about earlier about, like, not letting myself be solely defined by the things outside of me. In the back of my mind was like, what kind of life do I have outside of this? And that's what was always knocking at the door. I love showing up on time and doing well, blah, blah, blah.

42:41 And that feeling of, I guess I did another great show. Then at a certain point, I realized. It's not realistic to work at this kind of pace without balance. And slowly but surely, knocking on the door was like, okay, what else do you want to do? What else do you consist of? More than this, you know, there's other kinds, there's life still happening outside of eight shows a week. And that voice got louder and louder. And then I found that, okay, well, I'm not ready to leave the show. So how can I not sabotage this? Because I did get burnout. How can I not sabotage this incredible opportunity? Okay, that's when I started doing outside. You know, once I got back, when I got off tour, when you're on tour, it's great because you're going to different cities. You get to be a different version of yourself in every city. You're meeting new people. The show's a hit. People are rolling off the red carpet wherever you go. Once I came back into the New York company, which was tremendous to take over the role on Broadway, I was the second person to do it on Broadway. Then it becomes, okay, now I'm in New York or I'm back home. I have, there's no excuse to not only do the show. And I started, okay, now people would do benefits.

43:47 I would donate my voice just to do service in that way. I would start doing more cabaret acts because I would reach a point where I'm like, okay, doing this same thing every time and finding new things within is great, but I need, I'm a creative. I need to create something else. So I would do my own show where I wasn't directed. I could sing what I wanted to sing the way I wanted to sing it. So that became a balance. And then when I get around again, I thought, you know what? Maybe I'll do a Disney CD. You know, every Broadway star eventually released some kind of recording. I thought, maybe I'll do some Disney songs and give them my own spin. So that took a lot of my time. And that was great because, like, I wasn't just Mufasa. I was also financing another aspect of my dream, my creativity.

44:37 And that lasted for a long time. And then at some point I realized. Which, by the way, that album is fantastic. Thank you, man. We're going to put a link to that in the show because I listened to it and then I listened to it on repeat. It's just absolutely fabulous to hear you sing and your take on different Broadway Disney songs, right? So fun. I mean, it's such a good album. Supercalus is probably my favorite because it's so different. Is that the one you favorite? Yeah. That one and her voice. It's such a great song. Her voice is. Yeah. Little Mermaid is my second favorite. But yeah, so there are ways. And when I do my talk, I talk about balancing your passion. It's okay to have more than one passion. And if you can find something else to detach, like I love this thing, but I'm going to detach from that and go to this other thing, I get to come back to this thing that I love with fresh eyes.

45:28 So when I was recording my CD during the day and then go to the show at night, it was like, oh, wow, now I get to do this. already know with a different kind of energy as opposed to doing the same thing because we all need refreshers and when i do my talks i remind people that you're allowed to take a break even if you have to schedule it it's okay because it's not realistic to go like this all the time it's just not we're not machines we're human beings and other parts of ourselves want attention yeah definitely true um you know when you're doing this too so you you were you do miss saigon i mean it's this huge hit right and then you're the second person to do mufasa on broadway which lion king is um you know the the most successful uh box office wise uh broadway music of all time and my sixth broadway show i've done six broadway shows in total my goodness right and and how how easy it might be for somebody who's done that many to let their ego get a little out of control.

46:32 And I want to read you a quote from you. So I'm going to quote you to you, and then I want to get you down. You said, gratitude is a great remedy for when our egos get out of control. So tell me more about that, about how gratitude played a role for you to help keep that ego in check a little bit, recognizing that you still have to recognize that you can do a lot and you do great things, but not letting it get out of control. Well, for me, I mean, I learned a lot from my mentors. you know, throughout theater. Even when I was in the chorus, I would look at the principals, the stars, and see how do they behave themselves? How do they take direction? How do they... Because when you're the lead of a show, people treat you differently. They treat you like you're a parent, whether you are or not. They just look to you differently. If and when I am blessed enough to have the opportunity to be one of those kind of people, how do I behave?

47:22 You know, how do I address the cast? How do I, you know, how... It's a very real thing. What persona do I want to take on? And so once I got to that point, and I would talk to these people and ask them questions, and they loved it. They loved it. I was one of those real serious kids who really wanted to do it and really wanted to know every aspect of it. They would feed me and tell me, well, you do this and you do that, and this is appropriate, this isn't appropriate. So I had that kind of training from my mentors, and I learned then that... It's never about you. It's always about the work. The work is the most important thing. As an actor, like with Lion King or any show that I do, there's a whole team of people who crafted this piece of art. And every word that they chose, they chose. So I can't add to it. All I can do is take what they said and try to give it different meaning. You know, but still tell the story. So there has never been about Eagle. It's always been about the work. And again, that came from my mentors.

48:28 In gratitude, I mean, there were many times when I would be burnt out. I'd be sitting in my dressing room. I have one of the few dressing rooms on Broadway that has a window. Because most dressing rooms do not have windows. And my window faced out, I could see part of Times Square from my window. And I'd be sitting there going, you know, here I am playing Mufasa in the most incredible show ever. And what am I really doing with my life? You know what I mean? We all have those questions. no matter how successful we are, what am I really doing? And I would go, I remember those times, and I'd be walking through Times Square, not on Broadway, not working and thinking, will I ever be a part of this community again? Because you never know if your last Broadway show was going to be it. Like after Miss Saigon, I thought, this may be my one and only Broadway show. Thank goodness I got to do five more. But I think about that time and that feeling of not being a part of this thing I love, and I would go, Step out of it. I'm here right now. All right.

49:28 So having gratitude at the foundation is something I can always tap into. And I have different levels of gratitude. So I will never get so burnt out that I can't tap into some kind of gratitude because it's that important to me. And I think that you may do some meditation. Is that one of the ways that you kind of center yourself in making sure that you find gratitude? Yeah. And to me, meditation isn't just sitting still. And this is something, another thing I discuss with my, when I do my talks for corporations and things, like meditation is whatever takes you to that comfortable place. My meditations are active, looking at meditation for me. I do hot yoga. You know, my best thoughts come to me when I'm in a hot room and I do not, I'm a fan, I'm a person who's not a fan of summer.

50:13 So like me doing hot yoga is like, I can't believe that, you know, 17 years later that I'm a hot yogi, but it takes me to the place of like. where I go through the fire, I get to the other side, every class, and I find this place of, like, I never thought I'd be here. And that's where the clarity is for me. So whatever takes you there, for me, it is that. It is cooking. It is taking a beautiful drive. It's being in nature. I'm a tree hugger. You know, I have a garden. I'm blessed to have, live in a brownstone, have a roof garden. They feed me. I think that's something I get to nurture. So whatever, meditation doesn't have to be still. A lot of us are very busy. It could be... Yeah, that could be a beautiful drive and great music or sometimes just driving and listening to the wind. Whatever calms you down is your meditation. Yeah, I think it's a really great point. I think for me, it's something that I've kind of come to the realization of in the last few years. And for me, that's actually been running, which is not something I ever would have guessed, much like you don't like summer.

51:10 I hated running. Like I thought it was terrible. Why would anybody do this torture? And yet I had a really good friend who just encouraged me to do it. And so I started doing it and I just stuck with it. And I finally got to this point where when I run, it's, it is an absolute meditative state. And I know I can go to that when I need to just think, when I need to just almost kind of clear my mind and then think really, really clearly about things. It's moving my body and it's running. And that's absolutely become that for me. And I love what you're saying there, the advice about. Like find what it is for you because it doesn't have to be sitting there, you know, doing a particular pose and doing owns, right? It doesn't have to be that. It can be a lot of things, but find what it is. And then be intentional. Yes. Do more of it. Be intentional.

51:54 Do more of it. If you're busy, schedule time. Like this is for me. Oh, I'm going to take out a half hour, no matter what's going on, to detach and go do this thing. And then I'm going to come back a better version of myself for everything that I touch. Because I've given this to myself. I love what you said about running. You think, why would anybody do that? I felt the same way about yoga. But then when I do it, it's like I get the mental stuff, but then I get all the physical benefits, all the other stuff that I didn't even think about. But the real, the bottom line is I'm doing it for me. Yeah. And all those other things become great surprise benefits, right? Yeah, such a great point. You know, one of the things I thought about when you are doing all these performances of Mufasa, is that, you know, each night, it's like you have to hit such heavy emotional beats playing that role as Mufasa, right? How do you do that and not have those heavy emotional beats take a toll on your personal life? Well, this is where training comes in.

52:59 Because, you know, I know a lot of folks. I did a show called The Color Purple. I got to play. Mister in the color purple. And I got to work with Fantasia, who was fantastic. She wanted to do the film. She was wonderful. She's naturally talented. And, you know, because it was so close to her real life, it was really hard for her to turn it off. And it was really, as a cast, we saw her really go through it, really struggle with it. She's such a genuine, sweet, kind. I mean, she's what you think she is. Just a Southern girl who's just the sweetest can be. And she's dealing with all this stuff. And it's like, here's a great example of like, you know, if you have training, part of your training is learning to like be there when you're there, but then turn it off once the curtain comes down. That's why many people think they can just go from TV and film or another medium and go and do eight shows a week. They always go, wow, I had no idea it was this hard. It's like, yeah, you've got to sustain that and you have to have a life beyond it. But if you don't have that kind of training, you can't help but take it home with you. because because you're using real parts of yourself to tap into this emotion to communicate to the audience so the training definitely helped and i was saying earlier about you know not i can't it's not realistic for me to only do mufasa and insist on every show be perfect i have to like leave some space for myself to make mistakes and to be human because

54:30 i'm not a machine even though i'm consistent and i Am I proud of myself on that? I am a human being. So having a life out of it is very, very important. Something to detach to that you enjoy is very, very important. And this is with any business, right? Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things I thought about when I was kind of thinking through this and the emotional toll things can take and the repetitive. The repetitive beats that you have to have. When I think about what my profession is, one of the things that I struggled with initially when I was first doing divorces as a divorce attorney was trying to set aside my clients' issues and problems so that I didn't take them home as my own. Because I was doing those every day. I was counseling people every single day about... maybe the most difficult emotional thing that they've had to do, many of them in their lives. And it was really hard because I took it home, right? I took it home at first. It was so hard. And it just, over time, I learned to start creating better boundaries.

55:32 I learned to start leaving that more at the office so that I didn't bring it home, but it took a toll initially, right? It was really hard. And in essence, that was the training I had to go through, I guess, which is kind of on the job training, I suppose, and see how the negative effects were, but realize I needed to do it a little bit differently. year. So was there anything particular that happened? Is there a particular case that made you go, wait, I can't, this is not sustainable. I've got to find, I've got to, this is something that, that caused you to really go, I need to set boundaries. Yes. And in fact, there was a number of like really difficult emotional cases that I had to deal with, with some like really tough things that happened, but the one that really made it clear to me that I needed to have the boundaries for. myself and for my family was actually the case was relatively innocuous but i was at disneyland with my family and i had given out my cell phone to some clients and i had a client that was just incessantly texting me about what they perceived as an emergency and i'm sure for them it felt that way for me knowing the law i knew that it wasn't right but i knew that it was something that didn't need to get addressed But it was just like text after text. And I'm trying to enjoy this time with my kids. I'm trying to be present with them.

56:46 And my phone's getting blown up. And it was kind of like, oh, it hit me. The boundary has to be, I can't get about myself. I can't be dealing with these things when I'm going to be on vacation or I'm out of the office. It has to be, it's okay for me to set that aside. Does that mean that some clients aren't going to hire me because they can't access me 24 -7? It sure does. And that's okay. And I had to be okay with that. Exactly, dude. Know thyself and know what you need to perform at a high level. And it's different for all of us, but if you don't set it, then you leave yourself at the mercy of it. Because I feel like that person, if he keeps calling and you keep picking up, they think, well, it must be okay. That's exactly right. It's up to you to go, that is not okay. And also with me in those cases, I've learned to really trust my instincts. with any friendships, anything, even kids who want to be looking for mentorship, I can tell if the kid is looking for me to do everything for them or if they've already started and they just need help. Because I don't like wasting my time. You know, I like making good investments. And I've learned to go, okay, yeah, I'm a loving, giving person, but that has to be earned from someone. I'm not going to just give it because I've allowed it to be abused so many times. So you live and you learn. yeah yeah no doubt so one of the other things too i wanted to get a little bit more of your take on as well is what did you learn from being mufasa

58:17 himself right being the king both the things the lessons from that show but also what you mentioned a little bit in your in your book which is unessence kind of became that for the cast at times as well like the leader for the cast tell me what lessons you learned from mufasa i learned um I learned quiet strength. I learned that you don't need a lot of words to make your point. Because when I first saw Lion King, I first saw Lion King, I was doing a show called Ragtime, where I was like the star of the last battle of this glorious show that I'm actually in the process of directing. I'm making my directorial debut with it in September. So I've been in meetings for the past month with, you know, costume designers and set designers. I had, you know, three meetings this morning. But anyway. Where's that going to be? I have to digress here. Where's that going to be at? It's going to be in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, in a place called the Fulton Theater, a beautiful theater. No kidding. But I'm doing this big show, and I remember that year, the Tonys, it was Ragtime and The Lion King. And who's going to win Best Musical? The Tonys, one would win something, then the other. And they kept going down, and then Lion King, of course, took the prize. And I remember thinking, Man, when I get a chance to see the show, I want to see what the big deal.

59:36 It can't be all of that. And then, of course, I saw it. I was like, oh, wow. I remember seeing the gentleman who played the original Mufasa and being moved by his performance, but thinking, man, he doesn't have enough to do. I could never play that part because he's just not enough there. I was younger then. And then I was cast as Mufasa to open the national tour and take it around the country for the first time. I complained. I was like, man, he's only in the first act. He doesn't have a whole lot of lines. But it was what it was. And then when I left the show to do Mr. in the Color Purple, and then was invited back to Lion King to open the Vegas company, I was like, wow, I've matured some. And now I understand why he says what he says. He doesn't need a whole lot of dialogue. It's about his presence, about what he represents. It's about his inner strength. It's about him taking the few words he has to say and saying them with meaning. I had enough life experience at that point to go, I can just say it like this, and that's it. So it taught me that the power of words, the power of clarity, strength. It taught me that a leader is not just someone who tells people what to do. A leader is also a very good listener. and a good problem solver and a good team player and listens well enough to go, okay, given what I've learned, you might be good at doing this. You might be good at doing that.

1:01:07 You might be good at doing this. Let's all do this. Let's all make this happen together as opposed to I have to make that. So it taught me a lot of things about leadership and what it takes to really be king. And we all have that in us. For sure. Real quick, one of the things that I wanted to ask you about as well was one of the songs that was unique to the Broadway version of Lion King. It's just such an amazing song. And just really get your interpretation of what the song means for you and what it could mean for people. And in the song, and I'm sure you know which one I'm going to talk about, but the song lines read, He lives in you. He lives in me. He watches over everything we see into the water, into the truth, in your reflection.

1:01:52 He lives in you. And so just some wonderful lines and the way that it plays out to you is just such an emotional song. So, you know, for you, what are the meanings of that song in your life? And as you were part of that, as you would sing and hear others sing that, what did that song mean to you? Well, when I first saw the show, actually before I saw the show, to be totally honest, I heard the soundtrack. And that song stood out to me. Something about the lyrics and music. I was like, whoa. And I remember back in the day, before iPods and things, we had, you know, if you liked songs, you would make your own playlist on a cassette. And on my cassette, on my gym cassette, was They Live In You. I thought it was so beautiful. It helped get me up. It helped me get motivated for the gym. And then when I saw the show and the way it staged, it was like, wow. And there's two different versions.

1:02:53 Mufasa thinks they live in you. Because he's explaining, Simba asked him, you know, dad will always be together, right? And Mufasa, you know, coming out of just having saved him from the hyenas, is not expecting, they've had the talk about danger. He wasn't expecting to have this talk about, yeah, one day I won't be here. So he looks up into the stars and taps into the energy of his ancestors and sings they live in you. And then in act two, when Simba's trying to find his own, thinking about going back, he sings, he lives in you, which is talking about Mufasa. So to me, what the song says, especially they live in you, is that energy never dies.

1:03:34 That we have the opportunity to pull from anyone that we've ever heard about, we've ever encountered, the lessons, the love, the beauty. Anything we want, if we choose to remember, which is the recurring theme of Lion King. Remember who you are. Remember where you come from. So that song means a lot to me, especially as a Black male who was pursuing theater, who when I went to college, when I started college, I was told that there were no roles for me on Broadway. I remember being in class as the only Black male in this class and the teacher going around the... class and going susan when you get to new york you got this looking for you waiting for you and him you and oh alton unfortunately the only things waiting for you are slave type roles like in showboat if you said this in front of the class i remember thinking she's talking to me did she really say this aloud of course i hurt my feelings as a young person but again it was another test am i gonna let her ignorance be projected onto me No. And no matter how much it hurt my feelings, I still knew that I wanted to do it. I thought, wow, this is a good lesson for me. You know, I will be tested, but yeah, I still want to do it. And I believe that there is something waiting for me. So I think about all those things. I think about the Black performers who came before me, who were more talented than me, who didn't have the opportunity to get to Broadway because of the times. And I go, wow, I get to pull from

1:05:04 their energy. I get to represent them. And not just them, but anybody. in history that has inspired me, I get to be a present representation of them. So they will always live in me as long as I allow them to. So that's kind of like a major theme of my life. It was when I first heard the song and then getting the opportunity to perform it nightly and have that meaning behind it, you know, in the context of the show and also what I felt about it personally was tremendous. A tremendous gift to be able to really share that in that way. Well, I think part of what's so inspirational for me about you and your story is, especially hearing some of the things you shared today, is that you're keeping those parts of inspiration and letting those be what you remember as opposed to the things that... a lot of people might use as excuses for not doing something great and for holding themselves back because they experienced something so hard and so difficult. And so they have all the excuses in the world not to go put themselves out there and to do something truly great. And yet what you've done is, is something truly great and truly inspirational for, for so many people.

1:06:12 And I thank you for that. Oh, thank you. So one of the things we want to end with is we'll do a quick little fun segment. We're going to do a quick this or that and rapid fire, and then we'll wrap up with your three actionable takeaways. So buckle up for this, this or that. Okay. Are you ready for this? I mean, I'm sitting down. I got my nerves together. All right, let's go. Let's go. All right. First one, circle of life or Hakuna Matata? Circle of life. So good. I'm going to digress for a second here, even though it's not going to be fast. One of the most brilliant things I think that Disney did was when they did the initial trailer for the movie, that it was just Circle of Life. That's what they did. It was literally just that, that whole opening scene. There wasn't anything else in the trailer.

1:06:53 And it was the most brilliant thing because the song is so beautifully written and the whole thing about it is just so wonderful. I love that. And it's about community. That opening is about community coming together. which is everything, right? Community. Yeah, which we can all relate to, right? It's so much of that, like we talked about before, the sense of belonging. Yeah. And having a sense of belonging because we all can work together. We all become something that can support each other. And also, can I tell you something that just bugs me? It really bugs me. Everybody says something, instead of saying, excuse me, or no problem, or you're welcome, they go, no worries. I'm like, where did this no worries thing come from? And now I just go, you know what I'm talking about? And they looked at me like, what I'm like, means no worries. I'm like, where did that, why does everybody start saying no worries instead of like other words? It seems really lazy to me. Sure. You're welcome. No worries. And it's like, who's worried?

1:07:46 Nobody's worried about anything. But anyway. I actually saw a clip a couple of days ago that said exactly that, right? Like, we got to all stop saying no worries. There's so many other things we can say that are more precise and much better. Use your vocabulary. You know other words. I might have to borrow that. I might have to borrow that idea of hakuna matata next time somebody says no worries. Hakuna matata? Is that what we're talking about? Right, exactly. It always throws them and they wind up giggling. Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, anyway. I love it. Bring a little levity, right? It's always kind of fun to bring a little levity. Opening night or closing night? Opening night. Closing nights are so hard. Oh, I'm sure. Because you become such a family. I don't care. Like, even this thing I just sang with the Pops last week with the other singers, and we had, you know, so little time to put this together. You rehearse on your own. You got blocking, staging, one day with the orchestra the next day, and then you do it. And it's so concentrated.

1:08:41 You're depending on each other in ways you can't even imagine. Then suddenly it's over. It's like always sad, no matter how. And it was a triumph, but it's still like, oh, man, I don't know when I will ever see them again. And the four of us may never, ever work together like this. But opening is always exciting. It's like you don't know what it's going to be. You've rehearsed, but you still don't know until that moment what it's going to be. So there's an excitement and a nervousness that's a part of the opening. Yeah, I love that. It's a great answer. Matinee or evening show? Evening. Matinees are rough. Oh, yeah. I mean, probably just the volume, the sheer volume of what you've got to do. Dude, when I was doing Ragtime, which is a beast of a show, you know, my character sings all these anthems.

1:09:26 You know, we did a five -show weekend. We did those with Lion King, too. So you as an audience member, you're seeing the show and going, oh, my goodness, you're exhausted from having gone on this journey. And we're going to do, if you see a 2 o 'clock show, we're going to do that again that evening. So a typical five -show weekend is Tuesday, Saturday, Sunday. You see no daylight. All you see is the dark theater, and you're doing what you love to do. So that's a whole other set of challenges that the average person doesn't know about. And I remember that. Because I see a lot of shows now, and I go, Steve, you're really good. I go... When I go see an evening show, like a Wednesday night, knowing they've done a matinee that day, I go, how did they do it?

1:10:08 And I did it. And I still don't understand, like, how did they get all that emotion, all that investment twice today? Wow. Yeah. It gives me a greater appreciation for, because my wife and I now love going to New York because we just absolutely love Broadway. And when we're there. We have to connect the next time you're here, for sure. Oh, 100%. 100%. Whenever I'm there, I always kind of bemoan like, oh, it's Monday. There's no shows. How come they don't do shows on Monday? Well, it's because they're doing so many. Like, they have to have a break. They're human, right? Like, of course, there's going to be a day. Some theaters have gotten smart. Now they do Monday shows. They'll have a Thursday off because they want to take advantage. They want to be one of three things you have an option of seeing. And there's always a Broadway happening everywhere.

1:10:54 But more and more people are doing Monday shows for that reason. Yeah. Okay, so I'm going to vary from the this or that real quick, and I'm going to ask you a quick rapid fire. What's your favorite show currently on Broadway that's not Lion King? Oh, my favorite show on Broadway, that's, oh, that's tough. Man, what have I seen that I really love? I'm trying to think of what's on Broadway. I see so much theater that I'm trying to remember what's Broadway, what's off Broadway. My favorite on -Broadway show, it's probably - Is Desi Comes Here still playing? No, it just closed a couple of weeks ago. I loved it. Did you see that? I did. I saw it twice. Oh, it was so good. It was great, yeah. I normally say Hadestown. Hadestown is really a fantastic show. Hadestown's amazing. Yeah, I've seen it like three times.

1:11:34 You weren't ever in Hadestown, were you? No. I always said that if I were to go back to theater, that's, Hadestown is a role that I would want to play. Because you'd be incredible. In that role. Yeah. You'd be absolutely unbelievable. That show, I mean, that show takes some singing, right? I mean, all Broadway does, but boy, that one sure does. And when, every time I've seen it, it just blew my socks off. It's so good. It's one of those shows where you really feel like you're a part of the world. Yeah. You just really, like, you forget that you're in a theater and you really feel like you're in, you're on stage with them, living all of that. Yes. Very few shows can take you there. Yeah, it totally brings you in. Okay, singing in the shower or singing in the car? Both. More in the car. I'm always conscious of my neighbors. I'm always conscious of that, but in the car, dude. Full on. Full concert. For me, it's the car because I still do it in the shower, but my kids hear it and then they tease me because I'm not a good singer at all. Legitimately, I'm not. They're always giving me a hard time when I'm singing in the shower. Singing in the car, like, hakuna matata. Exactly right. Exactly. Okay, backstage pass or red carpet? Ooh, backstage pass. Okay, tell me more. Red carpet is for showing off, which is nice, but it's like, ah, it's more social.

1:12:56 It's more, it doesn't really mean anything. It's temporary, but going backstage to actually talk to people and tell them, my goodness, you really moved me, or that is a whole other thing. That's more personal. Yeah, I love that. That's a great answer. And lasting. Yes, for sure. Okay, here's a rapid fire. And if you don't have an answer on these, that's okay. You can always pass if you want, but we're just going to get your first take on these, okay? Favorite Disney movie? The Lion King. Okay, if it wasn't The Lion King, because I thought maybe you would answer that way, because I totally get it. If it wasn't The Lion King. It would be, I like The Little Mermaid. So good. Little Mermaid's got great music, too.

1:13:39 Phenomenal music. And speaking of music... On my CD, her voice, that being one of my top two favorites, it's a song that Prince Eric sings that was cut from the film. But they did use it for the stage production. And I knew when I heard it, it's a ballad, but I knew immediately that I wanted to speed it up and give it a driving beat. And it tends to be people's favorite song. yeah i love that yeah um and and so with that favorite disney song um her voice okay yeah there we go it's so descriptive it's it takes place right after you know ariel's rescued him and he's like did i dream did someone come save me was there a girl where is she i keep hearing her voice you know it's you know it's it just really lays it out beautifully the song the lyrics and the music love it Favorite Disney princess?

1:14:34 My favorite Disney princess would be probably, I can't, this is Tiana. Wonderful princess, right? Not to show that when it first came out, it didn't do super well, but I think it's gained a lot more attention and a lot more people who love it. Me and my kids, we love it now. I think it's so fun. I love the music in that one, too. Really, really fun show. Do you, I should ask before I ask this next question, do you ever go to Disneyland or Disney World? Yes, I spend a lot of time working at Disney World. The Festival of the Arts, I helped start that whole thing that's become a yearly thing. No kidding. Yeah, it's like, you know, they have the Food and Wine Festival. They have the whole winter thing. We started what's called Festival of the Arts about probably almost 10 years ago now. It happens at the top of the year where they would take four different Broadway stars and we'd do concerts in the outdoor space at Epcot. Yes, which is a cool space. I did it for the first five years. Oh, my goodness. Do you ever go down there still for it? I don't.

1:15:43 I don't go unless I'm being sent for it. Okay. That's fair. I was going to say, if you're ever going down there, I want to know Wayne because I'm going to go meet you down there. Yeah, I did. I stepped away from it, then I did it again last year. And I might do it again. If I do, I'll let you know. And I've also been the narrator for the winter thing a couple of times. If I do, I'll definitely let you know. That was incredible to be there. You as a narrator would be awesome. Dude, it was so much fun. So when you go down there for things like that, do they give you, like, kind of special access to go on rides? They kind of give you the VIP? It's the worst. I get a tour guide. I get a two -bedroom suite. I'm allowed to buy up to eight friends down with me. It is the best gig in the world. Oh, man, it sounds incredible. I tell you, I've seen every inch of Disney World in every kind of way. You have. Dude, that's one of the things I'm most grateful for because that definitely satisfies a little boy. I mean, little Alton watching the wonderful world of Disney on Sunday nights after the Mutual of Omaha Wild Kingdom. That was it.

1:16:44 We would watch Mutual Omaha and watch Disney World. I was going, wow, one day. And to get to do that and find my sisters out and my family and go, look at us. It's happening. We're at Disney World. Dreams come true. Yeah, no question. So with that, related to that, what's your favorite Disney ride? Ooh, my favorite Disney ride is their latest one. I got to ride it the first week it opened. What's it called? It's based on a movie. Guardians. I had to write it the first week it opened. The first time I wrote it, I was done for the day. Have you ever written it? Yes. It doesn't just go like this. The whole thing turns. I was not ready. It's the first ride we did with my family. Because I had guests, I had to suffer through it. You can't go on the rides or get to the front of the line without me. But then when I went back last year, I said, let me try it again. And I was like, I love it.

1:17:51 I took some Dramamine before. There you go. And I was like, this is the most thrilling thing I've ever done. So that's my favorite. That's a great one. We had a really fun experience last time we went to Disney World with our two little daughters who were 10 and 6. And we had been trying to go on it all day, but we went during a time of year where it just had rained a lot. I mean, it rained incessantly on us that day. And Guardians had kept closing down when we were going to go. And they were opening it back up, and we tried to go, and it closed down. And so it's at the end of the day. The park is five minutes from closing, and they open it back up. yeah and so my one daughter my 10 year old and i get in line because my wife is like our six -year -old she was toe she was taking her on the uh on the bus back we're like hey we gotta see if we can get it and so we do and so we're going on it after hours by this point time you know the park's been closed for 45 minutes almost an hour and we get to go on it and we just loved it it's such a great memory that she and i have now going on that ride and the music all of it together yes I got another little story, though, that was really great. When they first opened, what's the futuristic land? Avatar Land, that whole thing. Oh, yeah. I got to go on that before it opened, too, because I was down to doing, because I've done, especially arts, I've done some speaking gigs for teachers, because Disney's really good about honoring people, and I was brought in to praise teachers, and it happened to be around when they were just about to open it. And they almost didn't let us do it. They

1:19:22 were like, you know what, we shouldn't do this, but okay. So we got permission to ride the, what is it called, Flight of Passage? What is it? Yeah, Flight of Passage, yeah. Oh, dude, that was like, yeah, that's another one. That probably came to your mind. Yeah, you feel like you're riding a Banshee when they do it. The way that they have it set up, the smells they have come when you're doing it, it is incredible. Yeah, it's magnificent. Yeah, such a great ride. Yeah. Yeah, I love those. Okay, a couple more here. Besides Mufasa, what's the favorite role you've ever played? It was Mr. in the Color Purple. Okay. Yeah, because Mr. really helped me heal my relationship with my father. Playing Mr. and that whole time period, I realized it helped me. I'd already done a lot of healing, but I realized, oh, wow, so many of our fathers had such limited resources in terms of healing outside of alcohol, the bar. sports you know men a lot of men are raised to really tap into the other parts of themselves and so it really helped me give some distance of like wow i have compassion a deeper compassion for him and men of his time yeah totally i love that that answer um okay two more um One, it might be a little bit deeper, so it might not be rapid fire really easily, but how are you saying yes and in your life right now? Because obviously that's our podcast, Yes And. How are you saying yes and in your life right now? In agreeing to direct Ragtime, to

1:20:53 make my directorial debut, I directed Ragtime, a symphonic version of it, which is different because the symphonic version is the focus on the magnificent music. so i did a lot of staging i got to design what it's going to look like and the projections and screens to to set where we are it was very fulfilling and but i was also playing cold house i was directing and starring in it which was a lot i remember thinking you know this is great to sing this music again after 25 years and that i still can sing it and hit those notes after 25 years but i really would rather just kind of stood back and watch the whole thing come together then Last fall, I got a call from somebody that I did my first equity show with many years ago, who's now running a theater and said, would you be interested in directing Ragtime? And I was like, yes. And what do I need to learn? And I said, I've not directed for a theater before. I've not dealt with, I mean, I have dealt with different. when I did the concert version, but this is different. You're talking about set design and this and that. And he goes, working with first -time directors, we love nurturing them. It's something we do.

1:22:07 I appreciate your expertise, not only with your journey with Ragtime, but your whole career. And I thought, wow, it's a chance for me to take my overall experience, the accumulation of my life, and put it into art. And it's been very challenging because I'm learning a lot. I have a different appreciation for what it takes to put a show together. I've never been in so many meetings in my entire life. And I'm very much an introvert. So, like, I'm going, yes, and, and then I'm coming out of myself. Yeah. Even with this. Like, normally, you know, I'm a busy guy. And I thought, past, yes. I have an opportunity to share. Yes, and. So, even this is something that is into that category. Yeah, great answer.

1:22:48 Okay, here's our last rapid -fire question. What is a question I should have asked you that I didn't? Or any story you had wanted to share that we didn't get to? That's a good question. I guess something that you could have asked me that you didn't. Something kind of really basic, but like, am I happy? Are you happy? Yeah. And the answer is I am joyful. Oh, I love that. Because I feel like happiness comes and goes, but I feel like the accumulation of my experiences have taught me for my life that joy is more important than happiness. That joy is something I can, no matter how challenging the day, I can detach from it and go, let me tap back into my joy.

1:23:40 As opposed to like, what's going to make me happy right now? No, let me tap into that reservoir of joy and sort of like gratitude, having that at my foundation. I can rest in that. I can lay in that. I can find peace and solace in that and then get back up and go back at it. Yeah, that's such a wonderfully put. I love the way that you describe that and the difference between joy and happiness. Terrific answer. All right. Well, as we finish up here, what we always ask our guests for is what are three actionable takeaways that somebody could put into effect in their life today or this week? So what are three actionable takeaways? Dream. Allow yourself to dream. Dreams are a gateway to things actually happening. Creating space for things to happen, for your wildest dreams to come true. I would say tap into your courage. Courage is a thing that I respect most in anyone. Courage to be who you are. Courage to tell the truth. Courage to tell your truth and live your truth. And I would say action.

1:24:47 Putting those things into action. You can sit and talk about it, but at some point you have to do something for things to change, for things to shift. I love it. Courage action. Great takeaways. Alton, it's been such a pleasure visiting with you. And thank you so much for taking the time to visit with us to share who you are and your experiences with our audience. I think people will be so richly blessed that listen. Anybody who's listening, pick up his book. You've got to read his book. It really was a joy to read. Honestly, buy the book and listen to the audio book because hearing him read the book too is an experience in and of itself that I just absolutely love. So thank you so much for your time. your kindness for your generosity and for inspiring many, many people. Well, let me, one more thing.

1:25:32 You can get my book at altonfitzgeraldwhite .com. If you get it from my website, because I now own the rights to my book, which is a tremendous thing as an author, I will sign it, personalize it, and send it to you. Same as you would pay on Amazon, but you get my signature and it's sent to you postage free. Also, my Disney CD. It's available on our website. You can get a signed copy of that, Disney My Way, where I've taken these Disney songs and given them my own arrangements, which has been really, really fun. And I want to leave one last thing. Yes. No matter how discouraged you may get, no matter how lonely or isolated you ever may feel, just like Mufasa says to Simba in The Lion King, if you remember those who came before you, you will also remember that... Watching oh Absolutely wonderful. So moving. Thank you for sharing that with us. Well,

1:27:03 what a great opportunity we had today to speak with Alton. What an inspiration that he is. And some things that he shared with us that honestly we had no idea going into it. And we appreciated his vulnerability and willingness to share some really personal things with us today. And I think there's a lot of lessons that can be learned from somebody that grew up in a really tough, difficult situation. grew up in the projects, alcoholic father, dealt with some sexual abuse, and yet he found a way to push past those things, found encouragement through mentors, through teachers, through people who helped him to see what his passion was, what he... was good at give him that encouragement put the work in both in therapy and in the work towards honing the craft that he was in to be Mufasa on Lion King in Lion King for more than 4 ,000 performances what an inspiration to anybody going through something difficult through a hard season in life that there is light at the end of the tunnel that we can Keep a positive outlook. We can accept the fact that things are hard and know that going through those things are difficult. Accept the emotions that come when things are really difficult and also have the hope for something more and have the hope that we can find the thing that continues to bring us joy and happiness. I also think there's so many lessons for him. from him in the endurance and perseverance more than 4 000 performances in a show like lion king as

1:28:33 the king mufasa really shows a great depth of of character of ability to endure to show up day after day and bring the same emotional beats to bring the same passion to what he was doing And I think one of the lessons we have there as well is finding moments to find other passions as well, to get the break, to not just have it become too routine. And that there's real benefit in that, in finding other things that you can come back renewed. and we really appreciate his time and spending with us. I strongly encourage you to read his book, My Pride. What a wonderful book it was, and it goes into far greater depth as to his journey that he had, both growing up when he was in elementary school, junior high school, and high school, what his journey was like to get to Broadway, and then throughout his experiences on Broadway and further lessons that he's learned. Again, what a joy it was to have him on with us. As you leave this conversation, remember that yes, the past can hurt and you can either run from it or you can learn from it. So here's to learning and finding joy in the journey. See you real soon.