Inside Out and Why Nobody Listens | BJ Oldroyd

0:00 My first experience with Disney was when I was three years old. And that's when I went to Disney World with my family and evidently got lost. No way! They spent a number of hours trying to find me. I had made my way apparently to the entry of the park and was trying to get back to the hotel. But then she asks the dad to weigh in. And then suddenly you see inside his head, right? And you see all the little emotions. And this is what they're saying to each other inside his head. Oh, she's looking at us. What did she say? What? Oh, sorry, sir. No one was listening because he just completely wasn't listening. Right. How often do we fall into that where he says most people do not listen with the intent to understand. They listen with the intent to reply. You know, we're basically shutting somebody out as if we were watching a hockey game. If we're simply listening with the intent to reply.

0:51 It's an ongoing struggle for me, honestly, because I've unfortunately I have a face that doesn't hide my emotions very well. So. You know, when I get feedback from a manager or if I disagreed with something, they usually knew. And I wouldn't say anything. It's just like, oh, your face did something. It's a human doing human. You have to have that approach. So in the right context, know when it's okay to remove the business element and just talk as people. Welcome to Yes and Land, where we say yes to the reality of yesterday and today. And we say and to the possibility, growth, and imagination of tomorrow. Do you ever look at someone and wonder what is going on inside their head? That is the question that opens Inside Out and is going to be the basis for our conversation today about communication. which fits so well with this wonderful movie, Inside Out. And today we're visiting with an excellent guest. Very excited to have a conversation with him, BJ Oldroyd, who has a great love for Disney. And when we prep for this podcast, I just want to soak up all of his knowledge and information about everything Disney and Disney parks and all the great things.

2:10 So super excited for a conversation today, BJ. Thank you. I appreciate you having me. All right, so our topic today that we're going to discuss is about communication. So we're going to dive into a little bit more about what that means, what communication issues that you see people have, what holds people back from having effective communication. We'll lace that through kind of the lens of Inside Out. However, before we get there, let's lay the foundation for who BJ is. Take us all the way back. Take us to, like, young, taut BJ. Where did you come from? How did you gain a love for Disney? And then what took you to where you are today, being at an awesome company where you've been in kind of the tech startup world for quite a while, rock and rolling stuff there, helping to lead people through communication, obviously a super important part of what you do, no doubt. So take us all the way back. Well, if we're going all the way back, it actually is a Disney tie -in. My first experience with Disney was when I was three years old. And I do actually remember bits and pieces of it. And that's when I went to Disney World with my family and evidently got lost. No way. They spent a number of hours trying to find me. I had made my way apparently to the entry of the park and was trying to get back to the hotel. So some workers and cast members found me, put me in the lost and found my mom. My mom came in. after they made some announcement that they had found, you know, a lost child. So she knew that was

3:42 me. And then the first thing I said to her when I walked in, she's like, mom, you were lost. And I blame the whole thing on her. So that kind of actually pushed me off Disney for a while. Cause anytime we went anywhere, I had to wear like the backpack with the leash and stuff. Cause I couldn't be trusted the worst. Yeah. It's, it was a good time. And they, today what I've heard they do now, and it's a little bit, they don't advertise it because. for obvious reasons but apparently what they do now is they have like superior superior facial recognition software i can't even say it um so that when there is a lost kid like they can identify very quickly where that child is at because of all the cameras they have and because they're capturing people's pictures initially and like they helped really develop apparently behind the scenes a lot of that technology that a lot of places use today for facial recognition Because they have obvious needs for it, right? Oh, yeah. I mean, safety is the first, most highest priority that Disney has. 100%. You have tens of thousands of people going to your park every single day. But this was also the joyous time of the 80s. Oh, yeah.

4:45 So that did not exist back then. It was very much like, hopefully a cast member finds you and hopefully they take you before you walk out into the street. Yeah. But now they still sell those backpacks with leashes, but they're for adults. So it's for like the wayward husband that goes and has to buy the things. So it still makes some money off of it. Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah, I moved to Washington State. I was born in Provo, Utah, but I moved to Washington State when I was seven. Right in Washington. It's a little town called Chehalis. Chehalis. Yeah. And where's that at? In the middle of nowhere. Okay, fair. It's a pretty small town, but I love it. It gave me a really... really big appreciation for that kind of small town feel. Yeah. And an appreciation for when I did go into, you know, like Portland or Seattle, like my dad and I would go in and visit Seattle and do the Seattle Mariners games and stuff. That was our thing. So fun.

5:35 They had a great stadium now too, by the way. Isn't it incredible? Yeah. The retractable roof, like the whole thing moves off and then moves back on. It's like a single unit. It's like the scale of it. The first time I saw it, I was just like. amazed at how big the scale of that. Oh, it's massive. Yeah. And it's honestly, it's quiet, which is surprising to me. Like you, if you're paying attention to the game and they start to close the roof, you don't realize it until it's halfway done. It's like, Oh, okay. That's something's happening. It's and there's the, the butt, like the brick work, all this stuff, like the chandelier they have behind home plate. That's just a bunch of actual like baseball bats made out of glass. And that's the chandelier. Then it's just the detail they put into it. It was awesome, especially I grew up going to the Kingdome, which was the opposite of everything that that new stadium represents, just a big piece of concrete. But, yeah, it was amazing. And it was a great time to spend with my dad. He was a surgeon growing up, so I didn't get a chance to spend a ton of time with him. So those little moments that we had were nice. Did you guys go to any basketball games at the time? The Seattle Supersonics? No.

6:41 Back in the day, which now are the Oklahoma City Thunder. Wait, they're bringing them back, though. I heard that they were. I was going to ask you. They are bringing them back. Is that legit? They actually are like, is it? They have to get some buyers. Okay. But they've approved the expansion. Oh, man. So I think it's going to be for Vegas and for Seattle. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So now that I'm older. I don't know why we never did. I didn't go to any Seahawks games either, and I'm a huge Seahawks fan. Oh, goodness. So, yeah, I don't know why that didn't happen. So you're living on a high right now. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Super Bowl champions. Oh, my goodness. That was good, especially because the Patriots can't. Oh, yeah, amazing. That's a whole different story. Y 'all were trouncing people throughout the playoffs, just trouncing them. I'm a Niners fan, and, man, y 'all made us look bad, and we weren't a bad team. You made us look horrible.

7:22 Brock Purdy is one of the most underappreciated quarterbacks in the league, in my opinion. Yeah. And when they did make it, I think it was the... I can't remember if it was the championship game or the Super Bowl. I wanted to see him win. Yeah. Like the Mr. Irrelevant taking that team to go win the Super Bowl. I was like, yeah, that needs to happen. It would be like epic story, right? Oh, yeah. Mr. Irrelevant doing that. That's what you make Disney movies out of. That's exactly right. Perfect. Because there definitely would be, right? We've got plenty of like Disney sports great moments, don't we? Yeah, there's some great ones out there. Absolutely. So you were mostly a Seattle sports fan growing up, or did you also have some Portland stuff? Because you guys sometimes went down to Portland. Portland was more so family. I didn't really equate that to any sporting.

8:04 And they really only had the Trailblazers at that point, and they were terrible. Of course, the Sonics weren't much better. None of the time. They had a couple years in there where they had Gary Payton and Sean Kemp and stuff. And Sean Kemp was very exciting. Oh, yeah. I mean, he was super fun to watch, and the glove, Gary Payton, was amazing. And they had some really down years, and that's why they got Kevin Durant, because they had some really down years, so they were really not very good at all. It just makes me even more wish they would have stayed there. Yeah. Because being able to, because OKC won last year, thinking that that could have been a Seattle banner, especially knowing that the Seahawks won, too. It's like, we're just going to raise all the banners now? Seriously. Who's the Sounders, the soccer team? They also won.

8:51 Oh, the Seattle Sounders, yeah. Yeah, they won the league. So it was a good year. That's good times to be a Seattle sports fan. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, here in Utah, we don't have quite that same luck. RSL won a number of years ago, but that's it. You go for something to do on a Friday night. That's pretty much why. Yeah, that's exactly it. That's exactly it. So you grow up in this kind of small town, Washington. Then where do you go from there? So graduated high school from there. and then moved back to Utah, and then subsequently went on an LDS mission to Lansing, Michigan. Lansing as opposed to East Lansing? Or is it one and the same? Because East Lansing is Michigan State, right? Isn't that where Michigan State's at? Yeah. I didn't serve on Michigan State, but I served in the area that surrounded Michigan State. So, yeah, they're neighboring towns. But it was technically the Lansing mission, even though everything regarding the mission was in East Lansing. you know you take it for what it's worth yeah but yeah we covered pretty much all of the lower peninsula except for detroit and kind of some of the suburbs around detroit um i made the mistake of showing up that first uh first day and after i you know changed out of my proselyting clothes put on the hoodie that my dad had given me, which is a Michigan. Oh boy. Hoodie. That was a problem. Oh boy. Yeah.

10:09 That would be a problem. It made it about a week before it got shipped back home and became my dad's favorite hoodie because I was not allowed to wear it because people would yell at me and things would be bad. Yeah, no doubt. But yeah, it's a real, I mean, that is a serious rivalry. Oh yeah. It's interesting because you know, you have that kind of rivalry where there is, you just can't wear something like that in those places. Whereas here, where we're at, Utah and BYU are huge rivals. It obviously is, but it's not that way. People are wearing BYU and Utah stuff all the time. Families are divided all the time. It's all over the place, right? Well, you have those jerseys and stuff where it's like half Utah, half BYU. It's the whole families divided aspect. You can have fun with it. For sure. And over there, I was there when Michigan State basketball was... like going to the Sweet 16, Elite 8, and all that stuff. And we were actually told we had to be in our apartments on game nights by usually like 6 o 'clock because if they won or if they lost, there would be a riot. They would turn over cars. There would be burning couches in the street. And I lived across the street from campus. So it was one of those things like, okay, well, if you hear stuff, don't look outside. It was interesting, but it was an amazing experience. What was your favorite thing about that area? East Lansing or just Michigan? Just Michigan. Your experience in Michigan. What was your favorite thing? Oh, man. The people, first and foremost. They were just some of the nicest I've ever met. But honestly,

11:40 the, like, the nature aspect. I mean, it's just, there's not a lot. It made me feel like I was back in my hometown of Chehalis because it was, you didn't get a lot of, like, the changing leaves and everything because it's Washington. They have the evergreens and stuff. But. We had some of the rolling hills and not a lot of large towns, especially some of my areas were in the upper peninsula where I'm covering two counties, and the town that I live in is 6 ,000 people. So it felt very small town. You walk down the street, you know everybody's name. You've talked to them seven times already, and you've only lived there for a month, stuff like that. And then spring and fall, all the leaves changing. Saw fireflies there for the first time in my life. That was very cool. Yeah. So just little things like that.

12:28 We don't have those here. No. Just little things like that. It just made it to where you can kind of quiet your mind down. And it was very easy to do that because your environment made that easier. Yeah. So I really love that about Michigan. Yeah. Makes sense. When did you start to regain your love for Disney? After your initial getting lost terrible experience. So it was actually, I made, one of my best friends uh i met him when i started my first startup um started working a company called thumbtack that was based out of san francisco but they decided to open a salt lake office and we were one of the first 20 people that they hired and he and his wife have a love for disney and you know we've been talking about like oh yeah i haven't been there in years and he hadn't really either and i told him the story about me getting lost and i'd always had a love for like disney movies you know like i i i joked about the fact that I was going to sneak out of the MTC so I could go see Pirates of the Caribbean because it came out five days after I left. The first one? The first one. Okay, yeah. So I was very close, but my parents were serving as a branch presidency in the MTC, so I probably shouldn't have done that. But, yeah, we just started talking about stuff, and he's like, oh, we're going to buy an annual pass. Next time we go, do you want to come? And I'm like, sure, why not? What's the worst that could happen? So he bought the pass. His wife bought the pass. We had one other friend that also bought one. And there was a group of five of us that just went down there.

13:52 And I remember walking in to the park and just like, oh, okay, I'm home now. It was almost immediate. No kidding. I just felt like the real world kind of melted away for a while. I knew I was there just to have a good time. I was there to not only spend time with my friends that I knew, but some people that came with us that I didn't know. And it was a blast. And by the time I think we got to the second day. Because back then you could convert your ticket if you had a three -day or more park hopper. You could convert your ticket into an annual pass. And so we went the next morning, and I converted mine into an annual pass. In that one -year time frame, I think we went four times. Wow. So it definitely was worth the purchase. What year was that? That was 2015, 2016. And I've gone. To Disneyland probably at least once a year since then but I've been you know to Disney World a handful of times And I've had the chance to go to Disneyland Paris twice amazing and yeah, I got the other ones under my belt now Yeah, yeah when when it connects for somebody it does yes connects and There is I mean say as they say I guess it's cliche, but there's something magical It's true. I remember the last one of the last trips. I went on it was just me and my buddy Jeff And he used to live in California. He was part of, if you know, like the biker gang look, the cuts that they

15:23 have. He had a bunch of friends that they made those, but specifically for Disney. So it was like the castle on the back. They had their Disney nicknames on their chests and stuff. They got pins all over them. It was really cool. So he's very much a Disney guy. And I had sadly gotten food poisoning the night before, so I wasn't in the best of moods. And I remember we're walking around the park. The firework show was about to start. You know, the sun's going down and everything. And the music started and the fireworks started. Instantly, I felt better. And I remember actually turning around and looking and be like, this, this is why I come here. And he's just like, I know, right? And then I remember where we went and got some food or something after that. So it was just one of those moments where it's just like, yeah, just has that ability to make everything just a little bit better. For sure. No question. So you then end up. You were studying history, right, in school? Yep. And then you end up getting connected into a startup, and then you kind of get into the startup world.

16:23 Taking us to kind of the topic that we're at, what in your years in startups, in tech companies, in the leadership positions you've had, what have you noticed on our topic of communication? What have you noticed as some of the biggest problems that people have when it comes to communication? There's a couple things that come to mind with that one. The main reason why those are the first things that I thought of is because I was guilty of them when I, you know, first kind of started getting my feet wet in the startup world. You know, I started with Thumbtack, that first startup, after I left school for history. And I was, you know, just a guy that was working on the phone.

17:05 And so I went to work every day. It's just like, I don't really have to. This doesn't apply to me. This doesn't really pertain to me. People give feedback or people would give advice. I'm just kind of, yep, that's whatever. And I would just go about my day. It was a paycheck. But then I started learning as I got to know more of the business and I got to know more of the people and the opportunities were lining up that you have to be open to what anybody is going to be saying to you. Communication is something to where if you're not going into it with an open mind, then you might as well just walk away because there's no point in you having the conversation. You have to have an open mind. And you have to be willing to listen to actually absorb what's being said and not listen just to, okay, you said something. I know I have to respond to that.

17:52 This is my response. So if you're not doing those two things, like absorbing what's actually happening and then listening with the intent to actually continue the conversation, maybe ask some questions and be like, why do you say that specifically? Do you have some examples? Stuff like that. It's not going to do any good. You're not going to go anywhere. Why do you think, because I 100 % agree, why do you think it's so hard for people to go into a conversation with an open mind? Because so many people don't. Why is that so hard? I think it depends on who the conversation is with, but I think the majority of the time it's ego. There's so much ego that plays into it. When someone says, I have some feedback for you, instantly you kind of, you know, you'll see people do this and like, yeah, let's go ahead and tell me what it is. And they're kind of closed off. and they almost feel like they're being attacked because they did something wrong. It's not just, no, I just have some constructive criticism for you because I want you to be better. I want you to succeed. And so many times it's just as soon as you say the word feedback or let's have a talk or something like that, it's almost like back when your parents would say, I've got to talk to you about something, and you're like, oh, I'm in trouble. It's not the case, especially if it's a worthwhile leader within that industry.

19:08 they're going to be having that conversation with you because they want to see you succeed. Yeah. And it's interesting because, you know, when you bring that up about somebody saying like, oh, can we have a conversation? Can we talk? I've experienced it from a leader perspective of the panic that I give people when I tell them I want to talk. And it doesn't have to be like it's not something bad. It might be something good. I might be telling them congratulations for something. There's this immediate like, oh. Uh -oh, the boss wants to talk. Uh -oh, what's going on? It probably is this fear, right? It's fear of what that's going to mean. It's fear of what's going to happen. It's a little bit of this ego, right? This pride situation. You know, for me, a couple of things that I've tried to do, and I'd love to get your take on these, is part of the reason why I have a weekly meeting with the people who directly report to me is so that then it's already curated in. I don't have to be pulling them aside and telling them that and have that fear strike their head. They're going to know they're meeting with me. And then in the meeting itself, then I take the opportunity.

20:09 And usually what I'll do, and I learned this from a podcast that I had listened to about management and leadership, is I ask if I can give feedback. Like, hey, BJ, can I give you some feedback? And then I'm inviting them to allow me to give it to them, and they're giving me permission to then do it. And I've just found that. People are more likely to receive it. It's not perfect always, but then they're at least opening themselves up a little bit more to say, yes, you can give me that feedback. Now they're listening a little bit better. What strategies have you taken when you're trying to help people not immediately have that panic reaction and helping them to be a little bit more open to feedback you want to give? I kind of take a two -pronged approach.

20:51 One of them actually is that. you know, can I offer you some feedback? Um, it's so good. It really is. Cause it, it brings up, it almost makes it feel like it's their idea, which is great. If it's, if it's something that, that they think they've thought of, it's like, Oh yeah, I actually was kind of curious what, what you thought. So are you asking that we can have that conversation? You know, I'll be more receptive to it. Um, the other would be just as part of that conversation. Cause I was the same way when I've, when I've been a leader or manager of, of teams, I would try to have, you know weekly one -on -ones with them and then you know like monthly team meetings and stuff so it's on the same page and um depending on how i had to talk to the individual i'd make sure that i knew exactly what i was going to cover if there were some concerns you know how i'm going to bring that up how does that relate to you know your day -to -day but then i would just put some questions in there like if we just listen to a call it's like okay this is this is what i thought i thought you did a really good job you built great rapport with the customer you knew the products really really well What do you think is one positive and one could be better that you could have done on this thing? And if they start kind of digging into the possibilities of improvement on their own, again, it's like the can I give you some feedback? They're instigating it. And then you just be like, yeah, I actually really like you brought that up. I thought something similar.

22:10 Mind if we talk about that for a little bit? Yeah, sure. What did you think as well? Anytime you can get them engaged in that conversation and it doesn't feel like you're just getting a reprimand, then. 100 % of the time, they're going to be more open to that. Yeah. When the shoe's in the other foot and you're the one needing to receive feedback, how have you learned over time to be open and have an open mind to the feedback that's coming your way? Because I think we do have this natural reaction of like, oh, oh, I don't want to listen to that. Oh, it's just, you know, you tell me something bad and I don't want to hear it. So what have you done to help yourself receive it better? That's a it's a good question. It's an ongoing struggle for me, honestly, because I've. Unfortunately, I have a face that doesn't hide my emotions very well. So, you know, when I get feedback from from a manager or, you know, even in my last job, a direct manager or like I meet with the director over the customer success team once a month, if I disagreed with something, they usually knew because I wouldn't say anything.

23:13 It's just like your face did something. But. It's one of those things that I'm kind of hyper -focused on. And part of that approach for me is asking for feedback, like actively putting myself in those situations where I'm going to be getting some feedback, some sort of advice or some sort of coaching or something that I may not like and it may end up being great when I ask for it. But that's a consistent thing for me when I have my one -on -ones with, those that I report to, to be able to say, what feedback do you have for me? And if they say, I don't have anything, I'll actually bring something up. So what about this? Do you feel like I could be doing better with the product or taking more calls or something? I will kind of become my own worst enemy and I'll analyze my own performance and then get their feedback on it. Because then if I do that and they're like, no, I think you're doing great, I can then say, okay, what I'm doing is working. I can now focus on other stuff. And the other thing that was really hard for me was, the listening with true intent and not just hearing something. It's like, I have a reply for that, which instantly means I'm not listening to the rest of what they're saying. Being able to just be very open to what an individual is saying and then responding based on the entirety of what they said has been the biggest thing for me. So this, this is such a perfect lead in for us because this is from inside out, right? Yep.

24:39 This is to set the scene, right? So we've got the mom and the dad, and then we've got Riley, their daughter. I can't remember how old she is. Nine or something? Ten? Yeah, ten or eleven. Somewhere in that range, right? And they're around the dinner table, and the mom is talking to Riley. And I don't remember what exactly she's saying, but then she asks the dad to weigh in. because she's wanting him to weigh in on what's happening. And then suddenly you see inside his head, right? And you see all the little emotions that are characters inside of his head. And this is what they're saying to each other inside his head. Uh -oh, she's looking at us. What did she say? What? Oh, sorry, sir. No one was listening. Is it garbage night? We left the toilet seat up?

25:23 What? What is it, woman? What? Because he just completely wasn't listening, right? And it's such a funny way for that to be portrayed. portrayed and yet like how often do we fall into that right all the time yeah what what's kind of your takeaway like uh from from that particular scene what what leads to that what what are kind of the emotions that kind of both sides are kind of experiencing when that happens both sides the wife and the wife and the husband uh -huh uh well in that in that moment from the husband's perspective i'd imagine sheer panic uh -huh um and then for the wife just utter frustration, which hopefully they're having good communication outside of the dinner table so that they know what, you know, how to proceed in those situations.

26:12 But yeah, I mean, it just, it just kind of reinforces the fact that you have to be, especially as a parent, but you know, in the business world too, you have to be kind of hyper aware of what's happening around you. You don't really have the luxury of just zoning out. Yeah. So. I think it's sometimes representative, too, of even if somebody isn't necessarily zoned out, and I think he was paying attention to a hockey game or something, I think is what he was doing, that we will sometimes do that even in the conversation because the thoughts we have are on how we're going to respond. As opposed to, like you were suggesting, which is much healthier to do, which is to listen, trying to hear them and to understand what they're saying. In fact, we've got... I mean, there's a great quote, and probably everybody knows it, but from Stephen Covey, where he says, most people do not listen with the intent to understand.

27:06 They listen with the intent to reply. And so, you know, we're basically shutting somebody out as if we were watching a hockey game if we're simply listening with the intent to reply. And I'm guilty of it all the time, especially when I'm discussing something with my wife. I'm like, oh, OK. Oh, no, I'm going to respond to that. No, no, no. I got to say this thing instead of. and I think as you suggested, like asking more questions. Yep. I think that's one of the keys, right? So as you're trying to listen for understanding, some also call active listening, what are the things that you do to try to be more active and present in hearing what that person's saying?

27:47 One of the first things that popped in my mind is actually... I don't know if this actually works, but it has nothing to do with the person. I'm, I'm being mindful of, I guess it kind of has to do with the person. I'm being mindful of how they're perceiving me. Like, am I, am I kind of just looking deadpan because I'm like so hyper -focused that it's like, I'm listening, but to them, do I look like I'm zoned out or do I look like I'm not, I don't really care what they're saying. Yeah. And so, and I've done this in one -on -ones, but I've also done it in like, you know, when I'm done hiring interviews and stuff, I will. actively be like, you know, the whole smile with your eyes aspect. I'll be like, oh, I'm zoning. And I'll, you know, I'll kind of perk up and be like, oh, you know, I'm still here. I'm paying attention. And that seems to be kind of a nonverbal way to show others that, no, I'm listening. I'm, you know, paying attention to what you're saying. I'm here. I'm present.

28:39 I will usually, aside from the asking questions, I will use like clarifying statements. So if someone says something. I will just kind of repeat back. It's like, oh, so you're meaning X, Y, Z type thing. And it shows to them that I actually was understanding what they were saying. I was listening to what they were saying. And then if there is a correction, if I misunderstood, it's like, yeah, kind of, but this, then I can, you know, be like, oh, I was listening, but I was taking it an entirely different way than where you were wanting to go with that. So now you've brought me back on track. I'm present again. You know, I was still listening, but for some reason or another. i missed a key point there to where i you know i needed to be where you were at so those are usually some of the the tactics that i'll use i think that's really good and um i hadn't thought about that first one much but i think you're right like the way that our body language is communicating is absolutely communication yep and so if we do have that very you know gruff look or you know for a brow look while they're saying something even if for us it actually means that we're focusing It doesn't for them. And if we're aware of that, then we can take a little reset. Like, okay, I got to smile so I'm more engaged. I think one of the things that a lot of times people say is leaning into it, raising your eyebrows so it shows that you're listening. There's one thing, too, that I've found that some people will do, I think, as they think it's a technique to show that they're listening and ultimately becomes supremely annoying,

30:12 which is when you're talking to somebody, And instead of them just nodding their head when you're saying something, kind of like you and I have been doing, they say yes all the time. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And all it ends up doing is just like interrupting the flow and it like just becomes very jarring. And sometimes I've seen people use that to try to take back control of the conversation, which then is like they're not listening at all. They're just trying to say yes so they can suddenly get the attention back or they can get the word in that they want to say. So it's one thing is I've talked to people or trained people on this. It's like you have to be really careful. Body language is way better. The yes and the yes become very annoying, and you've got to be very careful and cautious. You can still use them. Just be very cautious on how much you do use them because of that. Yeah, it becomes almost like a – if I can tell that you're wrapping up a thought or wrapping up at least a portion of what we're talking about, you can acknowledge it. As my family will attest to, it drives me crazy when someone, like I'm in the middle of some conversation and I'm sharing a thought, especially if I'm passionate about it, and someone just jumps in and starts talking about something else. I'm like, cool, I'm done.

31:24 You want me to not listen at that point? It's like, hey, we're no longer having a conversation. You're just speaking at me. I'm not going to play that. But it almost, along the lines of what you were saying, where it's like they're trying to interject. That's what kind of comes across as like, okay, it's my turn now. It's my turn now. To the individual, it does break up their flow, but it also makes them feel rushed. It's like what I have to say is not important. And so it's like, oh, okay, I'm just bugging you. And not only do you not get the context of what's being said, which could be very, very important, and this is kind of going down a different tangent, but you potentially have damaged a relationship. And in the professional world, that's a problem, especially if you're like direct reports with that person. They're not going to feel like they can come to you with things. because they'll just feel like you'll just blow it off. So I hadn't thought about that one as well, but that's a big one. And what I really like, too, what you were saying about mirroring, is it's helpful for so many reasons. Just like you pointed out, it's helpful because you're showing that you listen, that you can also boil it down, what they're saying. The clarification one I found is really key, because there's times where a simple misunderstanding about a word or what a word means, the semantics of a word, can make all the difference. If one person is looking at that word and it means something to them and the other person it means something entirely different, using that mirroring technique and repeating it back in a way that they understand suddenly clarifies, oh, you thought that meant this. To me, it means that. Just like that, you can clear it up. And if you can clear those things

32:55 up and avoid those, now suddenly the communication is improved vastly through simply doing that, which is – it's a really powerful way to do it. One of the things that I found super helpful is also just in asking the questions that, like you suggested, it's the idea of being curious in those questions, that you're genuinely curious for it, right? You're not just asking questions because, well, I've got to check this box. I've got to ask a question, right? So I'm going to throw something in here that's kind of like it's a question. I want to seem smart. Yes. I have to act like a leader. So I have to ask questions. Totally. And you can feel the difference between that and someone who's like genuinely curious.

33:37 My sister -in -law is one of the best question askers that I've ever met. And she has this way, especially like meeting new people or talking to people where she's just so genuinely curious that it's like she can immediately build a relationship because she's being so sincere and so genuine. and asking those questions. And the other person feels like, wow, this person's like my best friend. I love this person. And it's just as simple as bringing that curiosity to the questions. I mean, it's not that simple because it's actually hard. It's hard to do it naturally and genuinely and keep it there and keep it in tune. But when you can master that skill, my goodness, it opens up a lot. You will go far. Yeah, it opens up a lot. especially with employees, coworkers, right? Just in the professional realm it does.

34:26 And then outside the professional realm, of course, like many other applications with your networking or making friends in so many other ways. So, okay. So with this idea of communication, one of the things we see with Riley and her parents is they're just really lack of effective communication for a while, right? Where... Their communication really starts to break down after this move happens. So they're, what was it in, I want to say it was in Minnesota. Is that where they were? They're in Minnesota. And they got to make this move, presumably for dad's job. I think that's what it was. And they moved to San Francisco, vastly different place than Minnesota was. And Riley really begins to like struggle with this thing.

35:07 And I mean, she's a tween. And so like her communication with her parents is not there. I think what we see with Riley is, It's kind of like she's kind of been like this kind of perfect job for them, and then suddenly her world is disrupted, and she's feeling it, but she's not willing to communicate it because she's still got to have this perception of being this perfect child. When people are experiencing those kind of breakdowns in communication, how do you identify when someone is not sharing? The things that maybe they share that are struggling with them. How do you pull that out of somebody effectively? Like for Riley's parents, them trying to pull it out of her in a way that's going to be genuine and sincere and allowing her to express it without just holding those things in. Because I think that's really hard. I think it kind of goes back to one of the things you mentioned before about the being genuine aspect. Knowing when to be a person as opposed to a leader. Because it's – we've all experienced in the business world where at times you feel more like a cog in a wheel as opposed to an actual individual, someone who's contributing, who feels valued.

36:24 You're just kind of – you're a dollar sign on a spreadsheet. Anytime somebody feels that way, I think instantly they're going to kind of close off. They're not going to want to have conversations with leaders because they feel like they're not being understood or they're not being heard. or that we don't care. So I will look at a few things. If I'm like running a team meeting, for example, and I know that when I'm, you know, based on my past conversations, I know that someone is usually a pretty outgoing person. They communicate with the team. They, you know, in past team meetings, they've been very present. And even if it's just cracking jokes and not necessarily contributing from a business standpoint, if I'm noticing differences with that, that will be kind of a... Maybe we should do a check -in and see. It's like, hey, how are things going? Just in general. Now, obviously, maintaining professionalism because we're not therapists, but, you know, it should be like things good with you. You're doing okay. Any struggles with the job? Any struggles that you want to bring up to me? And, again, making it their decision if they want to share. We're not going to sit there and pry into their life. And then just, you know, kind of being able to show that you care. As an example, I had a woman on one of my teams when I worked at Thumbtack. And it was hard for me to kind of gauge how to interact with her because she was in her 60s, I think.

37:54 And so it's like, okay, you've got 30 years on me. You've got all this life experience. She'd worked at a bunch of places. She'd raised four kids and all these things. So I had to try to find unique ways to be able to. have that conversation, but I felt like I had a good enough rapport with her during one of the one -on -ones. I was just like, Hey, you know what? I don't know what it is. Something feels kind of off. Like, are you, are you doing okay? Like, is there, is there anything you want to talk about? Is there anything you want to, you want to bring up? Um, cause I'm, you know, I'm here to listen if, if you need to. And she initially said no. And we started having a conversation about her performance, about work. And she started She started talking about, you know, one of the calls that we had just graded. And I was like, yeah, I noticed that you seemed a little, like you got flustered on that call. And again, I asked her, it's like, was everything okay? Like, is this not typically what happens? And she just opened up and started telling me all this stuff that was going on.

38:53 So I think it's an aspect of being genuine. Again, being kind of always present, not zoning out and being like, you know, it's fine. It doesn't matter. You have to be able to pick up on those things. If something feels off and then trust your gut when it's like, Hey, just curious. Is everything okay? Yeah. Before we jump back in, can I ask you a quick favor? If you're enjoying the journey so far, will you like rate and subscribe to our show? It helps us reach more people like you. We can design and create and build the most wonderful place in the world, but it takes people. To make the dream a reality. It's such a good example of a couple of things. I mean, the first one is that it's inviting the person to. We can't force them to. Because you just can't. Sometimes people have to express it in their time. And that's one of the things we see with Riley and her parents, right? They know something's wrong.

39:54 And they're trying to. But before she ends up opening up. We have this like explosion back. And I wrote down one of them that she was like, she yells at him like, what is your problem? Just leave me alone, right? Like classic kid thing. But we as adults do that same thing. Sometimes we're invited to, but we're not there for whatever reason. But one of the other quotes that I wrote down was from Daniel Pink, who is author, public speaker. He's got some great books. In one book called To Sell is Human, he wrote, listening without some degree of intimacy isn't really listening. It's passive and transactional rather than active and engaged. And when I heard you talking about those words that you were using, I actually wrote them down before, and then you said the exact words. When I was thinking about this quote, like what does it mean, intimacy?

40:43 Because we're not talking about romantic intimacy, obviously. We're talking about something very different. I wrote down genuine presence, and you used both of those words precisely because that's it. If we're genuine, we actually care about that person. And we're being present with them. We've invested into their reality, what their life is. We create a space in which they could share if we invite them to. They might not. We can't force it. But it certainly won't happen if they don't feel safe enough to do it. And I think it's along those same lines. You talk about the example with Riley. It's not just her parents either. There's that example in the movie where she's talking to one of her friends. And they're talking about how well the team is doing and all these different things. If you don't, it's you have to have that intimacy. It has to come from both sides. If you're going to be willingly having those conversations and make it genuine and make it present. That's one of the things that was missing for Riley is it just like, nope, that aspect of who I am is now closed. And you have to kind of sometimes you have to kind of hit, you know, rock bottom, for lack of a better term, before you open that door up again and let people that used to have that kind of connection with you have that connection again. Or let somebody else in to be like, hey, I genuinely just want to help. So I like that quite a lot. And one of the things that we'll see here with kids in divorces is they get to that space where they don't feel safe. People know something's wrong. I mean, obviously, right?

42:14 If their parents have gone through divorce, like everybody knows that theoretically this kid should be experiencing some things. But it's very easy for those kids to get to a place where they don't feel like they have a safe place to actually communicate that. Or what they're going to communicate is not genuinely how they feel because they're trying to protect other people's feelings. And they become a really difficult thing for kids that are in divorce situations. And by the same token, the same thing happens to us as adults, right? We sometimes like to act like it's just the kids whose brains are not fully developed. And they've got loads of excuses. Our brains are. And we're doing the same dumb stuff, right? We're doing the same dumb stuff. Yeah. But it's really easy for us to fall back into that. It's really easy for us to fall back into, like, the reactionary, like, no, I'm going to shut people out. Yeah. I don't want to open up about this.

43:03 I don't want to be vulnerable about this. I don't want to hear what you have to say. You know, just leave me alone. It's really easy for us to get there. Well, we take it a step further as adults because it's not only, you know, I don't want to be that open with you. I don't want to talk about this. It's like, well, you won't care anyway. And we turn it on them. I luckily haven't experienced a divorced home, but I have a number of friends who have. And I think it kind of comes across that way sometimes with kids too. It's like it turns into, as they get older, they think it's their fault that the parents got divorced. And as they become adults, everything starts to turn on, well, yeah, it's me, but you wouldn't want this anyway. You wouldn't want to have this conversation. You're not going to listen. You're not going to care. You're not going to help. And it's so – if you're not – you have to have that intimacy level. But even if that's not there, if you're having genuine interactions with somebody, that's how you start to kind of knock on the door or break down the wall. I'd be like, no. If I didn't care, if I didn't want to have this conversation, if I didn't want you to be better or want you to succeed if you're looking at the business world, I wouldn't ask. So hopefully they're willing at that point to be like, all right, let's have a conversation.

44:14 I think what it highlights for me as well is something I like to talk a lot about, which is kind of the key difference between kindness and being nice. Kindness is born of empathy. And the only way you can really empathize with somebody is to try to understand them, to try to find out more about them, be genuinely interested in them, in their lives, what's going on for them. Because if we don't, like if we can't remember things about their lives or remember things that they've told us before, they're not going to have any kind of confidence that we actually genuinely care, right? Like, can you remember my kid's name? You don't even know that I have kids or not. You don't remember this or that about me. It feels surface level. Yeah. And so it takes extra work to build the foundations of that relationship so that you can have those intimate conversations in this context, right?

45:04 Have those conversations that break down some of the walls. You have to really lay the foundation. And you don't lay the foundation for selfish reasons either. We had a guest on who is a military interrogator. And he talked a lot about the difference for him between manipulation and influence. And for him, the key difference was manipulation is when I'm going to do that to benefit myself. But influence is when I'm going to do this thing to benefit somebody else. And so when we want to learn about somebody and be able to be genuinely interested, it's because we're interested for their sake, not for a selfish reason. Not because, well, I really want to get this person to do what I want at work. Now we're just manipulating.

45:47 Now it's not genuine. Now it's not authentic, right? We have to keep in mind those motivations so that it comes across well because this lady that you were talking to, this older lady, like she could have sniffed it out if you had been totally selfishly motivated, but you weren't, right? And so that led to... a deeper level of communication where she felt safe enough to have that conversation with you, which is hard, which is so hard. And honestly, it meant, it meant a lot. Like that was when, if I remember correctly, this was a long time ago, but if I remember correctly, that was, that was the biggest takeaway from, from that day. It's like, this was the thing that happened today that I love the most. And we had a bunch of great stuff. Like we had a meeting where it's like, yeah, we won this award and you know, yada, yada, yada. It's like, I don't care. I actually, you know, Finally broke down one of those walls with this person that I've been trying to for a while. And it was just the coolest feeling. That's amazing. I wrote another quote from a lady named Amy Edmondson.

46:41 And this was in something she wrote called The Fearless Organization. And what she said was, low levels of psychological safety can create a culture of silence. It can also create a Cassandra culture, an environment in which speaking up is belittled and warnings go unheeded. And I think that plays into what we're talking about here, right? How do we fight that? How do we avoid creating a culture of silence so that people are actually willing to, first off, speak up in the individual communications, but also speak up and communicate in meetings where they feel like they can give opinions and give their ideas without feeling they're going to be belittled or condescended to if they come up with something or say something. How do we create that better culture? That's one of the biggest questions that I don't think anybody's gotten the perfect answer to yet. Sure. In my mind, it's the human element again. I think we've all been there in those meetings where we're expected to chime in. And we finally do. And we feel nervous. It was like that didn't come across. I don't think I explained that the way I should have, or they probably understand what I meant. And it was either just like dead silent or someone just said, okay, thanks. Or they actually started teasing you because you maybe started over your words or something. Those individuals that have had that experience, a lot of times become the

48:14 leaders that are now running those meetings. So what I would hope. that when they're looking at the culture that they are trying to foster and the culture they're trying to build, they remember what it was like when they were in that person's shoes. And you are gracious that someone actually spoke up. You are accepting of what it was. And I think it kind of goes along with one of the things we already talked about before. You can clarify something. Like, okay, so are you meaning this? Yes, I am. No, I'm not. Okay, let's have a conversation with it. You know, if you want to try to have someone else join in on the conversation, if someone that normally talks up says something, you'd be like, oh, yeah, you know what, Joe, you and I were actually talking about something like that a couple days ago.

49:03 I loved what you said during that conversation. Would you mind sharing that with the team? You're building them up before they even say anything. You're verifying that it's like, yep, you had a great point. I loved it so much. I feel like everybody else should experience that as well. Just being engaging and having that type of like everybody here is an equal and I'm going to treat you like an equal and I treat you like a human. You all deserve to be in this room. I think it's really hard to do, to remember to do, but so key if you can do exactly what you said, which is take that prior conversation. highlight it to other people because it boosts that person's confidence. Now, when they're in a group setting, when they're in some kind of meeting with more people, they're more likely to voice that because they've had it validated. Okay, contributions that I had or that I made or that I came up with or an idea was validated. Maybe I'm good enough to speak up. Maybe I can say something in this meeting without the fear of just being shut down or made to look dumb. And I really love that suggestion. highlighting people's strengths in front of everybody is a really great one. So when we come to an inside out, when there's this kind of the resolution of it, right, where finally Riley kind of gets broken down and she kind of tried to run away and then comes back and finally is willing to kind of pour her out to her parents.

50:28 This is what she says. I know you don't want me to, but I miss home. I miss Minnesota. You need me to be happy, but I want my old friends and my hockey team. I want to go home. Please don't be mad. What are you going to learn from what she's kind of communicating to her parents? That it's okay to allow yourself to feel what you're feeling. In personal life and professional life, you're going to have days that are just going to be hard. If we're open with how we're feeling and open with that communication. Nine times out of ten, that's the kind of response we're going to get from other people is accepting, understanding, loving, you know, things of that nature. And it's so, I think, wonderfully depicted from the emotions inside Riley's head to about where kind of some of this resolution comes, where you see the character Joy embracing sadness.

51:29 And then you start to see some of her core memories replayed where. there's moments of sadness that turn into joy, right? The one core memory they kind of showed throughout was like her hockey team, all lifting her up on their shoulders and cheering. And then at the end you actually see, and it rewinds and actually she missed the winning goal. They would have won the championship. She missed it. At the moment where they're like on the tree branch. Yes. And then suddenly they come to her. And they helped celebrate her because of all the amazing things she did do. And so that became a moment of joy. And I just think it's really a good depiction of like, we can feel sadness. We can miss something. We can be having a hard time with something. And that's okay. It's okay to feel that. And we can also talk to somebody else about it and we can move forward. We can then embrace what comes next.

52:23 We accept that sadness, but if we try to lock it down, we try to store it away, we try to hide those feelings, then it's going to end up coming out in this giant burst, much like it did with Riley, right? And it can eat you alive, depending on what those emotions are. Yeah, and they can turn into a lot of other things, too. I think what we see with Riley, which, again, is just a great depiction, is it turning into a bunch of anger, right? Anger comes out, and then suddenly anger is controlling everything. And he's taking control of all the controls, and he's pushing everybody off, and he's doing it all, and she's just firing away. Well, and there's no... Is he the one that puts the idea in where they couldn't get the light bulb out? Yes. Where it's like, no, we're stuck on this path now? Yep. It's dangerous when you just let everything just kind of fester.

53:06 Yeah. Because naturally, it will all kind of turn into anger at some point anyway. Yeah. I think this is skipping over to Inside Out 2. You talk about when... joy embraces sadness that was one of the biggest moments for me in the second one is when joy embraces riley like that i don't even remember what it was like her personality that's constantly changing from yeah happy to sad to anxious and all these different things and she just you know and then they all come in and hug them like i think that's kind of a good depiction as well of what happens when we allow ourselves to truly feel those emotions, have those hard conversations and not just let one emotion run everything. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

53:53 I love that. All right. So let's take us to a couple of quick segments. Okay. We're having some fun. All right. So first segment is this or that. Okay. So you gotta be ready. You might have to defend it. If we think your pick is controversial, you know, we're going to have that whole conversation. I would never do such a thing. All right. So the first one. Joy or sadness? Oh, joy. Joy. Sadness is really good. Sadness is great, and it's... The actress that depicts her, I mean... From The Office? From The Office. She's fantastic. Played Phyllis? I don't know what her real name is. Is it Phyllis? It's her real name. It's her real name. I don't know what her last name is, but I was just waiting for her to say, like, Van's Refrigeration at some point during Inside Out. But no, I love... That's a hard one because they play so well off of each other in that movie.

54:45 But I actually think we get a lot of, even though joy is the emotion, we get a lot of different emotions from joy. And so I really like the way that that's depicted in the movie. So I'd have to go with joy. Love it. Minnesota or San Francisco? San Francisco. You've been to Minnesota? No, that's why it's San Francisco. Just a layover for me. It was the only time I've ever been there. Same. And it was cold, and I was like, oh, okay, it's cold, like everybody says. If it's anything like Michigan, like I loved Michigan. I mean, we already talked about that. But I froze in Michigan. It was so cold. So I just couldn't do that. There's parts of my spine that are still frozen, and I got home 20 years ago. Like it's so cold, it just cuts right through you. I love San Francisco. I've had a chance to go a handful of times. Went to a 49ers game the last time I was there. Yes. It's such a great city. We've only been once. We took all the kids. Unfortunately, it was only a preseason game. We did go to a Niner game. Still loved it. Talk about a great stadium. Oh, yeah. That is a great stadium. And it was funny. When I was re -watching Inside Out, when they moved to San Francisco, they show.

55:51 the windy street. I can't remember what it's called. My kids are like, we've been there. We've been there. I was like, yes, we have. That's a dad moment paying off. Take the kids traveling and they recognize things. I love it. It's perfect. It's, it's, you know, it's core memories. Yeah, totally is. Yeah. So I love it. Every time they see that street, they'll remember that trip, which is kind of fun. Okay. Imagination land or bing bongs rocket. I don't know either one of them. So, so bing bongs rocket is when. bing bong and joy are like trapped in the in this pit oh and she can't get out yeah for some reason i went to like rides oh yeah so this is the movie this is the movie and so to get out they have to like believe and try to do it and then ultimately she's only able to get out because bing bong like gives her the last shove she finally gets out of it yeah yeah imagination land in her head is fun but the rocket carries so much more like emotion in the movie Yeah, and I can only really remember three parts. There's the Cloud City part, which is clever. Something having to do with French fries, and I'm not a big French fry person. You're not? No. Now that's controversial.

56:54 I will eat them when they're warm. As soon as they cool off, I'm like, we're done. I will give you that, 100%. And you can't reheat them. No. People try to have leftover fries. I'm like, heathens. No. Okay, you want controversy? Those that dip their fries in a Wendy's Frosty, blasphemy. You know what? I actually agree. I don't like it at all. I don't either, especially if the fries are warm because then it just melts and it just tastes like a fry. And for some reason, it's this big thing, and I don't get it. It's not good for me. I don't either. I do love fries, though. They do need to be piping hot. You can be piping hot fries. Salty or like the ones, I can't remember what they're called, but where they come with like the cheese and oregano or something on it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they have them at Disney, a number of places. I can't remember what they're called now. But those are really good. But I also prefer the shoestring fries.

57:53 Really? I like them when they're crispy. Skinny ones? Skinny crispy, huh? Yep. I think I like all. I love McDonald's. I love the waffle fries at Chick -fil -A. I love the crinkle cut fries at Culver's. I just love fries. This is how bad it's going. When I go to Culver's, I get the cheese curds instead of fries. And they're not that good. They're not bad. The cheese curds aren't bad. I kind of like them, but I do prefer their fries. They also have good fry sauce, but that's a Utah thing, so I'm the fry sauce guy. Okay. Text or voice memo? Voice memo. You are not the first person that's told me that recently.

58:35 I mean, I'm just shocked. People do that apparently a lot. If the person I'm talking to is open to it, I prefer to do that. Marco Polo, like I was listening to one on the way here. Marco Polo, I love that because it's nice when you can actually see the person you're talking to. But even then with voice texting, it's like there's so, and again, talking about communication, if you're just texting, there's so much that can be lost and misinterpreted. If you send a big text, like I think there's even a Keenan Peele commercial about that, where it's just like, hey, you know, are we still meeting at the bar? Like, why are you so aggressive? Like, why are you why are you? And he's like, oh, just happy. Like, oh, yeah. Are we still meeting at the bar? And Peele's like, are we still meeting at the bar? What do you mean? Question mark. He's like, oh, yeah, I thought we were like one of them is just so happy. The other person just looks like he's pissed at the world. And it's just a very, you know. Easygoing conversation. So I don't like the fact that that can happen when you text.

59:37 Plus, to make sure that that doesn't happen in my text messages, and my friends will attest to this, I have a tendency to use emojis way too much. Do they know that I'm joking or something? So when they can actually hear the inflection of my voice, I prefer that. That's why when I text, I mean, I'm... emoji or i'm almost always throwing a haha yeah or an lol yep because i want them to know this is like this is like it's not serious yes like let's it's fun yeah it's i you you might be convincing me this again you're the second person who i respect their opinion who's told me voice memos are like the thing i might have to do more of that because i talk to text why not just do it as a voice memo talk to talk i mean it's just it's the only downfall to it And I don't know if Android has this, but for iPhone, when you're sending a voice memo, it caps at five minutes. So it'll just stop the message at five minutes. That drives me crazy.

1:00:29 You said some long ones. I'm thinking five minutes is forever. Well, you should hear my Marco Polos. I've sent some 25, 30 minutes. It depends on the conversation and who you're talking to and everything. And sometimes you just really have to vent. Yeah, apparently. My goodness. Let it go. Yeah, I mean, for me, as long as I can then replay it in, you know, time and a half or double speed, I'm good to go. Which you can. Yeah. It's an option. Okay, next one is Disneyland or Disney World? Okay. Even though, I guess Disney World was your first, but it was a bad experience. Was that where you got lost? That is where I got lost, yes. It's not even so much that, because, like, we actually went to Disneyland. Not too long after that, I think I was four or five.

1:01:18 The only thing I remember is we stayed at a hotel directly across from the Disneyland entrance because California Adventure wasn't there. And so it had that big main street and all these hotels and stuff. And I remember that and I remember my family having a good time. For me, I think it actually carries into when I got reintroduced to Disney and going to parks and stuff. I had so much just the feelings that I have. It's like I talked about at the beginning. You walked in and just like, okay, this is awesome. This is where I'm supposed to be. And I love Disney World as well. Not as much, but I love it as well.

1:02:00 I have never had that feeling walking into a park at Disney World. Ever. I love the rides. I love the experiences. They have some things there that you can't get at Disneyland. When I go into Disney, it's just, I'm just happy. This is great. Plus, there's so many, I mean, four parks, they're far apart. They are. It's harder to do. You can't park hop with those ones. At least I don't think you should. You lose too much time. I did all four parks in one day before. Oh, that sounds horrible. Yeah. That sounds horrible. It was rough. Yeah. They need a Tron ride, too. They are. Because you like Magic Kingdom. They're bringing the Tron ride? That's what I've heard. Oh, my goodness. That ride is unbelievable. So, you know, in Disneyland, I cannot remember the name of the ride. So there's the Nemo ride with the submarines and stuff. And there's the, what is it called? Autopia. Yeah. Apparently, this, I guess, is not technically official, but it's been floated that they're going to get rid of Nemo. They're going to get rid of... I can't even say the name right. And they're going to put Tron in there, which would be, because that's Tomorrowland. That's the perfect spot to put it. That's right where it should go. See, I would love that. I've got to imagine that's going to be controversial because, I mean, Autopia goes back to the opening of Disneyland, right? Like it was there at the opening. But there's so much that, if you honestly were to tally up the number

1:03:33 of people, who go to Disneyland in a given year, what percentage of them do you think have actually ridden that ride? Autopia? Yeah. That's a great question. I have gone at least once a year for the last 10 years. And you never go? I have never ridden it. You've never? See, there's actually a pretty long line most days. Okay, let's take you to our rapid fire, okay? So first one that comes to your mind, it's mostly Disney related, of course. Favorite Disney movie? We're talking Disney as a whole, Disney classic, Pixar. Whatever you want it to mean. Toy Story. Okay. Love that. Favorite Disney song? Ooh, out there, Hunchback.

1:04:17 Okay. I've played him twice on stage. So that's why. I have a soft spot. So wait, you can sing then. I'm okay. Man, I'm jealous. I really love the theater, and I can't sing it all though. And so it's really limiting on what you can be in because... Musical theater is just, it's more popular, more people go, there's more opportunities. It's fair, but also, I mean, the last two musicals that I've been in didn't sing a note. Oh, you were just... No, I just did Fiddler on the Roof at the Ruth down in Orem. Oh, did you? I was the constable. He doesn't sing. No kidding. So it was purely acting for me, but I got a chance to enjoy everybody else doing stuff, and then I did Newsies at the Hale here in Sandy, and I was Weasel. I was the guy that hands out all the newspapers. He doesn't sing in the entire show. Wow, amazing. So there's opportunities.

1:05:02 There are opportunities, it sounds like. So maybe I need to look into those opportunities because I do love the theater. Favorite Disney princess? Oh, Rapunzel. This is a good one. Favorite Disney villain? Oh, shoot. Okay, I think it's a tie. Again, because I have the hunchback. So Frollo's one, but I also really like Hades. Hades is so good. I get that one a lot. He's so fun. He is. And was it James Woods that voices him? Talk about perfect casting. Like you can get scared of him at some moments, like when he loses his temper and all the stuff that he's doing is very sinister. But he's also like, what, my hair go out? You know, just there's an aspect of humor there that you don't really get ever in a Disney villain. It's totally true. It's totally true.

1:05:55 I love Hades. Favorite Disney park you have visited? Disneyland. Fair. That's fair. Let me take out Disneyland from the mix and re -ask the question. Disneyland itself, you can't. You could do Disney California Adventure in any other park. Which one would you prefer? Because there's components of every one that I like. What makes it hard? There's one thing that will always win. It's my favorite thing to do any time I go to California. So I'm going to say California Adventure solely because they have World of Color. I absolutely love World of Color. It's so good. I will get emotional almost every single time I watch it.

1:06:37 Yeah, it's amazing. So that one wins. I can totally understand that one. Okay, and then the last rapid fire we're going to go with is which Disney park is next on your bucket list? Tokyo. Tokyo, that's the one. Both Tokyo Disney and Tokyo DisneySea? Yeah. Okay. Because if you're there, you may as well do them both. That's the plan. Well, I mean, if I'm there, I have a tendency to not do vacations small. So if I'm going to be there, and I did this before, a couple years ago, my last job, we had a customer where they almost went with us. And if they had, I was going to be their customer success manager. And it was in Thailand, I believe. And so my manager, who spoke Thai, was just like, hey, if we get them, They have said that we have to come out to them to get them set up with our software. And I was like, okay. I instantly started checking how far I would be. And I did the math of, like, how much tickets were. If I'm going to Tokyo, I'm doing Shanghai and Hong Kong at the same time. So it's going to be DisneySea, Tokyo, then over to Shanghai, then over to Hong Kong. Love that. Then back to Tokyo and flying home. So I'll be gone for a couple weeks. That sounds amazing, right? Like I'm going to have to have you do my travel plans for me because that sounds like an ideal trip. We talked before the podcast about you've got to know the right people to get the right deals. You do. If I can find the right deal, I will jump on it. Man, that would be amazing. This sounds phenomenal. So what we like to do at the end of every episode is we like to give three actionable takeaways to our

1:08:10 audience. And so on this topic of improving communication. What are three actionable takeaways that you could give? So the first one that came to mind with this was we've talked a lot about active listening and being very present in the conversations that are taking place. One of the things that I have tried to put into practice is something I think that anybody can apply to themselves, whether you're giving the advice and starting the communication or you're receiving. Take a breath. before you respond just take a beat inhale exhale go gives you the opportunity to make sure you're not responding on pure emotion gets the opportunity to make sure that you are actually going to articulate what you're going to say not with a lot of like ums or you know i don't really understand what i'm saying so to actually give what you're saying a bit more credence and it just allows the conversation to flow a bit more naturally, and depending on the circumstances, a bit more professionally. So that's one of the first ones that I thought of. First one would be in some conversation this week that maybe is a little more intense. Yeah. Take a good long breath before you respond. Or two, if you need to. There's nothing that says you have to just respond right away. Love that. What else? The second one I think would be one that I mentioned before, and that's being mindful of how you're

1:09:40 being perceived in the conversation. So, you know, not just being so locked in that you look like you're, you know, so zoned out or like you're upset or anything like that. I've gotten that straight up, gotten that feedback in a meeting where someone asked, are you okay? I'm like, yes, this is just my face. Our director actually chimed in. It's like, yeah, he gets that a lot. So they know. If you're aware of that, and even kind of in my circumstance, you make a bit of a joke and be like, yeah, this is just who he is. But if you're aware of it, then you can be more mindful of that in the conversations, especially if you are running the conversation. Like if you're in a one -on -one with somebody, if you're in an interview with somebody, having that mindset.

1:10:28 of like, how am I being perceived? Not from an ego standpoint, but just like, how is this person seeing me? And is there anything that I'm doing or the way that I'm presenting myself that would make it to where they're not going to listen to what I have to say? Yeah, so good. Yeah, so good. Number three. Number three. I kind of bounce back and forth on some of these. So number three, I think would be, again, something we've kind of touched on, but that's the human element. Make sure it's not, you know, manager and subordinate. It's having the conversation. It's not director and manager that's having the conversation. In some cases, not even like in my role, it's not a CSM and a customer that's having the conversation.

1:11:08 It's a human to a human. You have to have that approach. So in the right context, know when it's okay to remove the business element and just talk as people. maintaining professionalism. That's a key thing in all of this, but you have to have that, you know, find those opportunities. And that could be something to where it's like, Hey, if you're struggling with something, it's like, if you, if you want to listen, you want me to want to talk, I want me to listen. I'm happy to do so. One example I had to, to try to help one of my customers calm down. Cause he had a lot of frustrations. We would talk about fantasy football for 10 minutes before every, every meeting before we got into the actual meat of what we were discussing. Yeah. And. He was on cloud nine before we even started talking about business. So it's just, just take those opportunities. It humanized him to you and you to him. A hundred percent. Yeah. So then suddenly when you have that human to human connection and both sides see it that way, now you can actually operate on a different plane. Yeah. Because you're, you're not only, you're not only viewing them as a person, but. Ideally, you're building that connection. You're building a relationship. You're building rapport. And so now if you have to have harder conversations with somebody, they're much more apt to listen. They're much more aware of what you're saying and that where that is coming from is a place of understanding, is a place of respect, and honestly a place of wanting them to be the most successful they could be, whether that's a customer you're talking to or an employee

1:12:39 or a coworker, whatever the role might be. Phenomenal. Phenomenal. BJ, thank you so much for being on with us today, sharing your wisdom, your love for Disney, all things inside out. It's been a pleasure. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. As you leave this conversation, remember that yes, the past can hurt and you can either run from it or you can learn from it. So here's to learning and finding joy in the journey. See you real soon.