Hunchback of Notre Dame and Autism Advocacy | Brett Nachman

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I felt more at ease with, you know, the young

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guy who I was becoming. Kind of the culmination

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of this that I talk about in a lot of different

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spaces because I view it as like a defining moment

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in my life was I was selected as our student

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commencement speaker. I was in front of a couple

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thousand people and I basically told folks about

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my autism and they didn't know it. I kept it

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very tight to the vest. Frollo says to him and

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trying to keep him up there and not go out there,

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he says, oh, my dear Quasimodo, you don't know

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what it's like out there. I do. Quasimodo is

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kind of the archetype of someone who feels like

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an outsider, who feels, I think, some degree

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of shame for being different and fear of being

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treated poorly by others. People didn't know,

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and not even back then in that context, realize

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the amount of stress that I carried with me in

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trying to show up in spaces where I looked like

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I had a lot of it together. just filled with

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anxiety and uncertainty. You can do a lot more

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than you believe. You just need to be around

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people who foster that sentiment and environment

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of building on strengths. And I think that's

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something that we all can embrace. Welcome to

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Yes And Land, where we say yes to the reality

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of yesterday and today. And we say and to the

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possibility, growth, and imagination of tomorrow.

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All right, welcome everybody to our next episode

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of Yes and Land. Very excited for our guest today

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who comes to us all the way from the University

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of Pittsburgh, right? Is that right, Brett? Yeah.

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Man, all the way out there in Pittsburgh, and

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we're located here in Utah. So we are very excited

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to get somebody on the other side of the country

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who has a lot of expertise, got a lot of knowledge,

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does some really great things in some of the

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research that he does and some of the teaching

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that he does. Professor over there. at Pitt in

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the School of Education, if I'm not mistaken.

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Is that correct? So very excited about what he's

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going to bring today because we're going to be

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talking about a really great Disney movie, The

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Hunchback of Notre Dame. It's a movie that for

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me personally as a kid, I didn't quite connect

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with as much as when I've rewatched it as an

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adult for some of the really important themes

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that there are. and those that maybe are more

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marginalized. And that's going to be our topic

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today is talking about people who tend to be

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more marginalized and how we can do a better

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job of finding ways to educate, to present to,

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to include those that might be on the fringes,

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those that might be marginalized for being different

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in any variety of ways. So very excited for the

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conversation today and where that's going to

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take us. So welcome to the program. Yeah, Ryan,

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thanks for having me. Glad to be here. What would

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you add to that biography of you, of the things

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that you're doing professionally? Yeah, no, I'm

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an assistant professor at the University of Pittsburgh.

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So my field, as I described to people, is very

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meta. So I'm in the field of higher education.

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So basically, I work with graduate students as

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we talk about issues facing academia and setting

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these students up for ascending in their careers

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or building their careers. in higher education.

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So to be administrators, student affairs practitioners,

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researchers, faculty, policymakers and the like.

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So it's a very reflective field where we look

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at ourselves and look at the spaces we're a part

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of and try to make it better in terms of inclusivity

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and equity and a bunch of other issues and considerations

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too. So, yeah, I've been here for the past two

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years and I've been a faculty member for the

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past four. And, yeah, glad to be building my

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own career here. I love it. And, you know, one

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thing I didn't mention, I can't believe I didn't

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mention because it's very, very important, which

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is Brett is I mean, really, he's a fellow Disney

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nerd, Disney adult. And he has a long running

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Disney related podcast called Notably Disney,

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which is just phenomenal, where he takes a look

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at. All things Disney music and Disney books.

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So anything that you can hear or read. He's been

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doing that for how many years now, Brett? We're

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going on close to eight. Close to eight years.

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And if I'm not mistaken, it's twice a month,

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right? Episodes that are twice a month. For a

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while, it was twice a month. This year pivoted

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to once a month. But nonetheless, a huge catalog

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of probably. Well over 150 episodes, maybe 180

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or so. Holy moly. Brett, that is a ton. And,

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you know, anybody that is wanting to to connect

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more with Disney stuff and get something that

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there's not other other podcast like Brett's

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podcast is definitely that way. It's really fun

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to hear. him talk about and break down for me

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i really enjoy the music conversations when they're

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talking about music stuff but also there's just

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tons of really great books that are related to

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disney stuff uh so his podcast is really great

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and and it's actually how i found him in the

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first place and really excited that we did because

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really want to dive into some interesting discussions

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today with his background in academia uh some

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of the knowledge that he has and ways that he's

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going to break that down so what's let's take

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it like way back brett so take me way back to

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like young Brett, where did you grow up? What

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was life like for you? And maybe a little bit

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from that perspective of maybe ways that you

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might have felt a little bit marginalized when

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you were growing up. Yeah, absolutely. I grew

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up in Scottsdale, Arizona, in the Phoenix metro

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area in the 90s and into the 2000s. And yeah,

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I think I grew up during a really great time

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in terms of Disney content, because this was

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the time of the Disney Renaissance. So many of

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the great animated films that so many of us love

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and carry with us today were released around

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this time. I had the opportunity at a young age

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to go to the Disney theme parks, Disneyland in

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96 when I was four, and then Walt Disney World

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at age seven in 99. And I was just a complete

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Disney consumer. All my merch was Disney. I had

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tons of Toy Story in my bedroom. That was my

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was and probably still is my favorite Disney,

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Disney Pixar film. And I was probably just very

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enchanted by. all the artistry and magic of it

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all. As someone who had a wildly imaginative

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mind myself, I was constantly creating things,

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whether it be, I love drawing maps. In particular,

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once I started going to the Disney theme parks,

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I would draw my own maps of Disney theme parks

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in my own mind. I'm thinking, hey, they should

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redesign Tomorrowland and it should look like

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this. I'm no artist, but I definitely enjoyed

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that. And I was constantly consuming Disney Channel

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and movies. You've got some Imagineer in you,

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don't you? There was that element, but it didn't

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translate to that part. Also, I love to write

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and that's now manifested in a wide variety of

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ways. But, yeah, I had a lot of passion for Disney.

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It was my what you call like a hyper interest.

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I was very obsessed with it. It still presents

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in different ways if you look at my background.

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So this is my book collection and some knickknacks

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and tchotchkes. But Disney was an escape for

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me. And I think it is for a lot of people. It

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affords a sense of exploration into different

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worlds and different experiences. And for me,

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I think as I got older, it became clear why Disney

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was so important for me. And I think a big part

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of it was just... being able to resonate with

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a lot of the characters and stories and i know

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we're going to be talking about the hunchback

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of notre dame to some extent today but for me

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when i was younger i was in many ways a lot different

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from my peers At the time, it was probably harder

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to define or operationalize what it was. But

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when I was eight, I was diagnosed with Asperger's,

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which today would fall under the autism umbrella

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or label. And very apparently so in terms of

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the ways in which I communicated. Didn't start

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talking until I was about three. So delayed speech

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there. But I was also reading and writing around

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the same time. So there were some elements of

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my learning that were perhaps a bit more enhanced.

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Additionally, my... Is that pretty common, Brett?

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For anybody listening, like if somebody has a

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child that has autism or other people, like is

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it pretty common to have certain things that

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might be delayed, but other things that it ends

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up being a little bit more enhanced because of

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that? I mean, I've kind of heard that, but I

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don't know if that's supported by research. Absolutely.

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Yeah, we can look at autism as a developmental

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disability. So certain developmental processes.

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come at different times and different ways. And

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that's kind of an example of that. There's also

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a lot of characteristics associated with autism

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that in many ways society would view as more

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unacceptable or not as welcomed that I showed

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signs of, right? So when I was very young, like

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I would have tantrums, I would get super overstimulated

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or overwhelmed in crowds and loud spaces. I would

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have a variety of different sensitivities and

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challenges at times in communication, reading

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nonverbal communication, expressing my own ideas

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and thoughts. So these are just a handful of

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the characteristics associated with autism that

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sometimes are painted with kind of a negative

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light. On the flip side, some characteristics

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associated with autism that are more positive

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or considered strains. I also demonstrated extremely

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detail -oriented, organized, responsible. And

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I would say the creativity is also sometimes

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manifesting uniquely with autistic folks. And

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I guess to some extent, I demonstrated that.

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So diagnosed at age eight, and it was... I think

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it was kind of a transformative period in the

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sense that we could now define why I was different.

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But then it's like, OK, well, what now? And when

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I was a child, I went through a variety of different

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therapies to account for the ways in which I

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was different or needed additional supports.

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I had a lot of challenges with reading comprehension.

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So I worked on that. Also, some different therapies

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related to like. mobility and balance, which

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is not too unfamiliar or rare in the autism community

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to need like some degree of occupational or physical

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therapy, some speech therapy. And ultimately,

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amidst all this, like Disney was a real place

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of comfort because, you know, I'm trying to make

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sense of myself and my differences compared to

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my peers and how I showed up. And there are other

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forms of marginalization that that I experienced

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and experienced. And Disney was an outlet to

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feel like, you know what, I feel at ease, I feel

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comforted. The parks always felt like safe environments

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for me when a lot of things in the world felt

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just very overwhelming in nature. So that's kind

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of sum up that period of time. Were there any

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specific ways in which kind of during those years

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when you when you realize that that's a little

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bit different about you and you're getting some

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help to do it, were there any particular ways

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where you really did feel marginalized by your

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peers, by the people around you who treated you

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differently or made your life a little harder?

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Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there were definitely a lot

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of social challenges that I faced in my kind

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of elementary school years in terms of communicating

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with others and understanding. whether it be

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social norms or different situations. And actually

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that translated to right around the time when

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I was wrapping up my elementary school years,

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my mom had just completed an online master's

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degree. And this was in the early days of online

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education. And she was kind of experiencing like

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a bit of a career change and lots of challenges,

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again, with my education and making sense of

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my autism. And we as a family decided, let's

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see about me being homeschooled as a way to really

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hone in on the things that I was strong at and

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also make sense of and work on the things that

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I struggled with in many ways connected to autism

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and social situations and stuff like that. So

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in my middle and high school years, I was homeschooled.

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And homeschooling sometimes has a mixed reputation

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and interpretation depending on how people. frame

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it I had a lot of structure and you know took

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all the common courses that one would and then

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in tandem focused on some things that were reflective

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of my strengths we invested a lot of time into

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reading and writing so that I would feel more

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adept on that front but in the same period you

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know I was a teenager and also you know going

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through the changes that come with that and and

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because of a lot of the social anxieties that

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I had, quite honestly. I kept myself isolated

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from peers in middle and high school because

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I was fearful of rejection and stereotyping and

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a lot of things. And then I know later we'll

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talk later in my life, but when I started community

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college at 17, that was kind of like a huge transformative

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period in terms of me putting myself out there

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and ultimately redefining what my life could

00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:12.529
and would be like. Not everywhere can be the

00:14:12.529 --> 00:14:15.590
happiest place on earth. And at RCG Law Group,

00:14:15.789 --> 00:14:19.690
my job outside of our podcast, we get that. Life

00:14:19.690 --> 00:14:22.269
throws curveballs, legal stuff, family stuff,

00:14:22.490 --> 00:14:25.009
the things you didn't see coming. That's what

00:14:25.009 --> 00:14:27.230
we're here for. If you're dealing with something

00:14:27.230 --> 00:14:30.009
and don't know where to turn, give RCG a call.

00:14:31.289 --> 00:14:33.990
When you're going to go in through that a bit

00:14:33.990 --> 00:14:37.820
and, you know, your family. hopes to make this

00:14:37.820 --> 00:14:39.539
decision with you about doing the homeschooling

00:14:39.539 --> 00:14:42.340
and you're getting some additional um help or

00:14:42.340 --> 00:14:45.899
things what what did you feel like that that

00:14:45.899 --> 00:14:49.080
the help that you got did right and and where

00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:51.840
do you feel like it was maybe a bit lacking uh

00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:57.159
back then in the late 90s early 2000s yeah i

00:14:57.159 --> 00:15:00.820
mean i think all the support that i got um primarily

00:15:00.820 --> 00:15:02.820
from my mom and you know occasionally through

00:15:02.820 --> 00:15:04.659
some therapies and different things everything

00:15:04.659 --> 00:15:07.899
was appropriate for me and right. And I think

00:15:07.899 --> 00:15:09.639
a lot of that came from because my parents are

00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:14.039
very thoughtful and informed individuals who

00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:17.080
explored things and wanting to make sure that

00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:20.139
I would be supported. For those who aren't necessarily

00:15:20.139 --> 00:15:23.960
in the disability space that I'm in, both in

00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:25.740
terms of my lived identities and some of my research,

00:15:25.899 --> 00:15:28.039
this is also a time when there's kind of a shift

00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:33.440
in, to some degree, where a lot related to disability

00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:35.620
and autism and everything under that umbrella

00:15:35.620 --> 00:15:38.679
is often medicalized and looked at as like how

00:15:38.679 --> 00:15:41.019
do we treat this or how do we fix this right

00:15:41.019 --> 00:15:44.320
which could be almost like translating to like

00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:46.860
that someone has an illness or something that

00:15:46.860 --> 00:15:49.539
needs to be changed whereas in the past couple

00:15:49.539 --> 00:15:54.279
decades we've seen more of a shift to more of

00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:57.580
like a social justice social model where we're

00:15:57.580 --> 00:16:00.480
thinking of like you know society has its issues

00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:02.639
and society is not always understanding of and

00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:04.740
supportive of folks who are disabled. So how

00:16:04.740 --> 00:16:09.360
do we make adjustments in our own ways to to

00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:12.419
account for the differences among folks who are

00:16:12.419 --> 00:16:15.240
disabled or in my case, autism? So for me, I

00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:17.659
think I got a lot of the right supports because

00:16:17.659 --> 00:16:21.100
of the family that I came from and the space

00:16:21.100 --> 00:16:24.000
that I was a part of. I grew up in a metropolitan

00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:30.340
area, middle class family with familiarity with

00:16:30.340 --> 00:16:36.879
issues around disability and supports along those

00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:39.500
lines. So I think I was very well positioned.

00:16:39.740 --> 00:16:43.080
And then my mom was in a position to homeschool

00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:46.340
me and her background was, you know, she didn't

00:16:46.340 --> 00:16:48.480
have a formal background in education, but the

00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:51.360
nature of her past work was related to supporting

00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:56.200
folks with different health and educational considerations.

00:16:57.730 --> 00:17:00.149
So ultimately, I had a lot of privileges and

00:17:00.149 --> 00:17:03.570
a lot of support going in. But my narrative is

00:17:03.570 --> 00:17:07.109
not necessarily representative of everyone. And

00:17:07.109 --> 00:17:12.029
also, too, a lot of folks who are autistic, we

00:17:12.029 --> 00:17:14.369
see a lot of common representations being, you

00:17:14.369 --> 00:17:16.190
know, folks who are white, male, middle class,

00:17:16.390 --> 00:17:19.509
which I am. And so in that sense, what I've tried

00:17:19.509 --> 00:17:21.950
to do in... Talking about my story and also in

00:17:21.950 --> 00:17:25.210
the research I do around autism is kind of reinforcing

00:17:25.210 --> 00:17:29.130
this notion that autism and other disabilities

00:17:29.130 --> 00:17:31.630
affect a whole wide range of communities and

00:17:31.630 --> 00:17:35.390
not just folks who are commonly depicted in certain

00:17:35.390 --> 00:17:39.950
media. Yeah. So in doing my research, kind of

00:17:39.950 --> 00:17:43.289
in preparation for this, I came across a number

00:17:43.289 --> 00:17:45.450
of different materials and things that really

00:17:45.450 --> 00:17:49.380
stuck out. And this is your field. And so please,

00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:51.359
please correct me if I get anything wrong in

00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:54.319
this. But somebody that I came across is by the

00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:59.140
name of Temple Grandin. And I just a quote that

00:17:59.140 --> 00:18:01.279
I really liked and some ideas that it looked

00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:03.980
like she had that just really actually helped

00:18:03.980 --> 00:18:05.740
shift my perspective. I want to get your take

00:18:05.740 --> 00:18:07.079
on one of the things that I wrote down that she

00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:09.660
said about this specifically because she apparently

00:18:09.660 --> 00:18:11.880
is autistic herself. She said, I am different,

00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:15.299
not less. which I think really goes in line with

00:18:15.299 --> 00:18:17.200
what you're saying, right? And then one of the

00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:19.299
things that I took out of some of the stuff she

00:18:19.299 --> 00:18:21.259
had too is she trying to change the conversation

00:18:21.259 --> 00:18:25.819
from autism as a deficit towards autism as a

00:18:25.819 --> 00:18:28.519
different, valuable way of processing the world,

00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:30.839
which I just thought was really interesting that

00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:33.000
I hadn't looked at it from that perspective before.

00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:35.200
Kind of want to get your take on that and maybe

00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:36.900
some of the things that she's done or research

00:18:36.900 --> 00:18:39.619
that you've seen specifically on that. Yeah,

00:18:39.619 --> 00:18:42.659
no, and I think there's a lot of... transferable

00:18:42.659 --> 00:18:46.599
qualities that she puts forward there. She's

00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:48.440
kind of, I think, in many ways the face of autism

00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:52.140
because of the amount of good work that she's

00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:54.779
accomplished on a variety of fronts. And, you

00:18:54.779 --> 00:18:56.799
know, she's depicted by Claire Danes in a really

00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:01.720
popular biopic about 15, 20 years ago now. And

00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:05.259
there are more notable autistic folks who have,

00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:08.380
I think, surfaced in recent years, too. But I

00:19:08.380 --> 00:19:11.119
think the notion of you know, not deficit, but

00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:13.220
different is a great way of looking at it, right?

00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:18.220
Like who's ultimately carrying out those interpretations

00:19:18.220 --> 00:19:21.980
and notions of what's considered okay. It's generally

00:19:21.980 --> 00:19:24.680
folks who aren't autistic or aren't disabled

00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:31.579
and can establish what those norms are. I'm definitely

00:19:31.579 --> 00:19:35.440
a proponent of this notion of, in the autism

00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:36.900
community, it's called like the double empathy.

00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:40.440
It's this notion of like, let's try to meet each

00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:42.859
other halfway, right? Autistic folks sometimes

00:19:42.859 --> 00:19:45.759
have to adapt to what the norm is, but the norm

00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:48.480
should also try to adapt to some extent to what

00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:51.059
the autistic person needs. And not all autistic

00:19:51.059 --> 00:19:54.660
people are the same and much like any other marginalized

00:19:54.660 --> 00:19:59.200
community or group. So I'm definitely a fan of

00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:02.440
the notion of that. You know, everybody has their

00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:05.819
differences and everybody has their. challenges

00:20:05.819 --> 00:20:08.319
based on what either they have in themselves

00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:11.160
or how society engages with them or views them.

00:20:11.619 --> 00:20:14.299
We need to work toward a society where we can

00:20:14.299 --> 00:20:17.779
be more understanding and empathetic and including

00:20:17.779 --> 00:20:20.839
folks. Yeah. Did you call that double empathy?

00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:22.720
Is that what you called it? So the double empathy

00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:26.539
problem, yeah, is and more accomplished folks

00:20:26.539 --> 00:20:29.759
than me have and who are more kind of looking

00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:31.880
at autism as a disability in their work have.

00:20:33.149 --> 00:20:35.670
worked extensively in describing this, but it's

00:20:35.670 --> 00:20:38.349
this notion of that there's adaptations that

00:20:38.349 --> 00:20:40.730
we should all be engaging in to try to engage

00:20:40.730 --> 00:20:43.589
in some degree of perspective taking. Yeah. Yeah.

00:20:43.650 --> 00:20:45.349
I really like that. Yeah. I'd never heard that

00:20:45.349 --> 00:20:49.569
before. And I love, I love that. So here's where

00:20:49.569 --> 00:20:50.829
I kind of want to go from here because there's,

00:20:50.829 --> 00:20:54.269
there's more about that your story and as it's

00:20:54.269 --> 00:20:56.450
evolved and developed over time. I want to pull

00:20:56.450 --> 00:20:59.230
it. I want to do it as we start working through

00:20:59.230 --> 00:21:02.349
kind of the arc of the Hunchback of Notre Dame.

00:21:02.730 --> 00:21:05.329
And so if there's anybody out there listening

00:21:05.329 --> 00:21:07.930
to a Disney related podcast who hasn't watched

00:21:07.930 --> 00:21:11.150
the Hunchback of Notre Dame, if they haven't,

00:21:11.150 --> 00:21:14.269
would you give us, Brett, a brief kind of 30

00:21:14.269 --> 00:21:18.910
,000 foot view of the tale, the story of the

00:21:18.910 --> 00:21:20.509
Hunchback of Notre Dame? And then we can really

00:21:20.509 --> 00:21:23.920
start diving into the arc of the movie. Gosh,

00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:25.920
yeah, I don't feel like I'm going to do it justice.

00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:28.160
You've watched it more recently than me, as we

00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:31.700
discussed. But it is it is a favorite of mine.

00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:34.579
So this is based on the Victor Hugo novel from

00:21:34.579 --> 00:21:38.299
many centuries ago. And as at least in the Disney

00:21:38.299 --> 00:21:41.619
version, what we have is it's set in Paris and

00:21:41.619 --> 00:21:46.619
it focuses on Quasimodo, who's this at the beginning

00:21:46.619 --> 00:21:52.039
of the film, he's this physically disabled. baby

00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:57.680
who is essentially through a very problematic

00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:00.140
opening. It's a very disturbing opening where

00:22:00.140 --> 00:22:07.440
his mother is a gypsy and essentially dies. And

00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:15.420
Frollo, who's this judge and figure in medieval

00:22:15.420 --> 00:22:20.339
Paris, essentially takes Quasimodo and and locks

00:22:20.339 --> 00:22:23.619
him in metrodome and bell tower to basically

00:22:23.619 --> 00:22:26.539
because there's embarrassment over what he looks

00:22:26.539 --> 00:22:28.259
like and thinking that he needs to be shunned

00:22:28.259 --> 00:22:31.960
from everybody and at least in the film it's

00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:34.319
implied that quasimodo is a teenager or young

00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:38.599
adult very very young adult who is you know tired

00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:40.640
of this life that he's been living where he's

00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:43.160
locked away and he longs to be out there among

00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:48.240
The village people and through a series of different

00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:53.579
experiences comes to befriend Esmeralda, who's

00:22:53.579 --> 00:22:56.680
a gypsy, an outcast like himself, and Phoebus,

00:22:56.779 --> 00:23:03.180
who's this kind of dashing soldier who ultimately

00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:06.319
falls in love with Esmeralda alongside Quasimodo.

00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:10.099
So we have a little love triangle of sorts going

00:23:10.099 --> 00:23:16.640
on. And it's this notion of folks trying to escape

00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:25.420
persecution and disrupt Frollo's wield over them

00:23:25.420 --> 00:23:29.500
and aspects of society. And it's a beautiful

00:23:29.500 --> 00:23:34.140
story of resilience. understanding and teamwork

00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:38.740
to some degree. So it's a forgotten film in some

00:23:38.740 --> 00:23:41.400
ways in kind of the lineage of Disney animated

00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:44.839
films of that era. But I think there's also been

00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:46.819
a generation of people like myself who grew up

00:23:46.819 --> 00:23:50.380
on it and find deep meaning and value in the

00:23:50.380 --> 00:23:54.519
storytelling and the themes. And we can take

00:23:54.519 --> 00:23:58.539
it from there. Yeah. um but well said uh i think

00:23:58.539 --> 00:24:00.720
that was a great description uh of it of the

00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:03.640
overarching kind of story there and so as we

00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:06.440
kind of roll back to the beginning and we kind

00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:08.660
of take a look at the beginning of this film

00:24:08.660 --> 00:24:11.319
after after the problematic opening right where

00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:15.039
uh but frollo actually was going to kill quasimodo

00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:16.400
he was going to throw him into a well that's

00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:19.000
right uh decided decided not to because uh the

00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:21.920
the priest i think there at that notre dame archdeacon

00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:26.109
yeah yeah yeah and so um at this thing when the

00:24:26.109 --> 00:24:28.289
feast of fools is going to be going on and quasimodo

00:24:28.289 --> 00:24:30.769
wants to go to this feast of fools because he

00:24:30.769 --> 00:24:33.089
from the bell tower you know celebrates it with

00:24:33.089 --> 00:24:34.849
the gargoyles every year and they're trying to

00:24:34.849 --> 00:24:37.730
convince him that he should go down and um frollo

00:24:37.730 --> 00:24:40.569
says to him and trying to keep him up there and

00:24:40.569 --> 00:24:42.730
not go out there he says oh my dear quasimodo

00:24:42.730 --> 00:24:45.329
you don't know what it's like out there i do

00:24:45.329 --> 00:24:48.990
i do and you know what we're starting to see

00:24:48.990 --> 00:24:52.029
you know with that is is kind of frollo's role

00:24:52.029 --> 00:24:56.819
in Really, I mean, keeping Quasimodo down and

00:24:56.819 --> 00:24:58.299
marginalizing him. Let me get your kind of take

00:24:58.299 --> 00:25:00.980
on that of kind of what the role of Frollo is

00:25:00.980 --> 00:25:04.819
and what that is like for people who are marginalized

00:25:04.819 --> 00:25:10.420
today in the Frollo's in our lives. Yeah. Yeah.

00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:14.559
I mean, he's a character who represents a lot

00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:17.559
of emotional manipulation, gaslighting and all

00:25:17.559 --> 00:25:21.119
the. problematic things. And, you know, there's

00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:24.279
so many different examples of that in modern

00:25:24.279 --> 00:25:28.779
day and in society. And you mentioned this notion

00:25:28.779 --> 00:25:30.700
of Frollo's in our lives. Like, you know, a lot

00:25:30.700 --> 00:25:33.660
of people, unfortunately, by virtue of where

00:25:33.660 --> 00:25:36.220
they are in circumstance, like sometimes are

00:25:36.220 --> 00:25:39.920
around folks who are demeaning and condescending

00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:46.309
and diminish someone's worth. And until you sometimes

00:25:46.309 --> 00:25:49.529
have a bit of exposure to the to other folks

00:25:49.529 --> 00:25:51.650
and folks who are not necessarily demonstrating

00:25:51.650 --> 00:25:54.710
those characteristics, your your picture of the

00:25:54.710 --> 00:25:58.069
world can be very distorted, unfortunately. Yeah,

00:25:58.190 --> 00:26:01.789
for sure. And and and then, you know, Frollo's,

00:26:01.849 --> 00:26:06.529
I guess, hatred or marginalization of people

00:26:06.529 --> 00:26:08.970
extends, you know, obviously well beyond just

00:26:08.970 --> 00:26:11.130
Quasimodo extends then to the gypsies. Right.

00:26:12.210 --> 00:26:16.440
And. um in kind of explaining or a portion of

00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:20.200
it where he's kind of explaining this um he says

00:26:20.200 --> 00:26:23.480
the gypsies live outside the normal order their

00:26:23.480 --> 00:26:26.000
heathen ways inflame the people's lowest instincts

00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:29.279
and they must be stopped and it's just more of

00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:31.519
this marginalization that he's doing right of

00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:33.660
of who the gypsies are and what they're doing

00:26:33.660 --> 00:26:37.650
and just trying to keep keep people down Where

00:26:37.650 --> 00:26:39.970
do you think that comes from for people, again,

00:26:40.029 --> 00:26:42.509
for those Frollo's that are in our lives? Where

00:26:42.509 --> 00:26:45.950
does that come from where they try to keep people

00:26:45.950 --> 00:26:49.630
down, where they try to cast people out or make

00:26:49.630 --> 00:26:53.170
people claim that people are living outside the

00:26:53.170 --> 00:26:54.930
normal order just because they're a little bit

00:26:54.930 --> 00:26:59.930
different? Yeah, I mean, I'm not I can only psychoanalyze

00:26:59.930 --> 00:27:03.089
this so far, but but I think a lot of it stems

00:27:03.089 --> 00:27:07.410
from people's lack of. self -confidence and fear

00:27:07.410 --> 00:27:14.490
of themselves being marginalized by others. And

00:27:14.490 --> 00:27:19.250
so it comes out in bullies and different behaviors

00:27:19.250 --> 00:27:21.970
where people are going to try to assert their

00:27:21.970 --> 00:27:26.309
strength and power and influence, right? And

00:27:26.309 --> 00:27:28.549
how does that manifest itself? Kind of like what

00:27:28.549 --> 00:27:30.410
we discussed in terms of the emotional manipulation.

00:27:31.390 --> 00:27:35.809
I'm no expert on that front, but I think we see

00:27:35.809 --> 00:27:39.410
that it's often stemming from a lack of faith

00:27:39.410 --> 00:27:41.990
in oneself that causes someone to lash out toward

00:27:41.990 --> 00:27:47.089
folks who hold less influence or power in certain

00:27:47.089 --> 00:27:50.190
respects, but actually may carry a lot more than

00:27:50.190 --> 00:27:56.559
meets the eye. What's the role of framing for

00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:01.859
us when maybe we're not as bad as Frollo, but

00:28:01.859 --> 00:28:06.680
that we sometimes will frame somebody in a certain

00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:09.660
way or put a certain label on somebody in a certain

00:28:09.660 --> 00:28:13.119
way that then affects how we actually will interact

00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:14.920
with them? What do you think the role of that

00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:17.279
framing is here? You know, he's saying like.

00:28:17.849 --> 00:28:19.970
The gypsies, they live outside the normal order.

00:28:20.049 --> 00:28:22.430
They're lower, they're worse than. So he's framed

00:28:22.430 --> 00:28:25.150
them that way in his own mind. What's the role

00:28:25.150 --> 00:28:27.210
of framing for us as we're thinking about other

00:28:27.210 --> 00:28:28.950
people, people who maybe are different than us

00:28:28.950 --> 00:28:31.809
or not like us? Right. Yeah. And that can extend

00:28:31.809 --> 00:28:34.289
to so many different spaces, right? Folks from

00:28:34.289 --> 00:28:36.349
a different culture or nationality than ourselves

00:28:36.349 --> 00:28:39.930
who speak a different language, racially, gender

00:28:39.930 --> 00:28:41.630
identity, you know, the list goes on and on.

00:28:41.750 --> 00:28:45.349
And I think, you know. there's a lot of ignorance

00:28:45.349 --> 00:28:48.049
in the world. And, you know, and not everybody

00:28:48.049 --> 00:28:52.029
is going to be adept in understanding every lived

00:28:52.029 --> 00:28:56.529
experience and identity. And that's okay. But

00:28:56.529 --> 00:28:59.009
sometimes, you know, and again, I'm no expert

00:28:59.009 --> 00:29:01.329
on this, but we talk about this in different

00:29:01.329 --> 00:29:03.730
spaces on the part of in terms of microaggressions,

00:29:03.750 --> 00:29:07.289
right? This notion of saying things that are

00:29:07.289 --> 00:29:10.390
not necessarily meant with malice, but doing

00:29:10.390 --> 00:29:12.769
things that actually may still produce harm in

00:29:12.769 --> 00:29:16.640
terms of language or framing questions a certain

00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:19.900
way or having certain stereotypes of people,

00:29:20.099 --> 00:29:23.000
so on and so forth. And, you know, and these

00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:26.019
are pervasive in all spaces. And even the most

00:29:26.019 --> 00:29:29.960
well -informed person on marginalization and

00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:33.819
identities may not necessarily get it right either

00:29:33.819 --> 00:29:37.380
all the time. But I guess what I would say is

00:29:37.380 --> 00:29:40.880
that we just need to be open to learning and

00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:43.569
unlearning. information and things that have

00:29:43.569 --> 00:29:45.569
been kind of espoused to us in different settings

00:29:45.569 --> 00:29:49.650
over time and realizing that there's often a

00:29:49.650 --> 00:29:54.029
lot of adjustments in our discussions around

00:29:54.029 --> 00:29:56.890
marginalized individuals, looking at that more

00:29:56.890 --> 00:30:00.589
collectively as time goes on, depending on the

00:30:00.589 --> 00:30:03.269
spaces we're a part of, right? If we're inculcated

00:30:03.269 --> 00:30:07.420
in a space where we're told XYZ about an individual

00:30:07.420 --> 00:30:09.700
with a certain identity, then we're going to

00:30:09.700 --> 00:30:11.960
probably embrace that, internalize it, and express

00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:14.160
that in ways that could be hurtful, as opposed

00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:16.420
to if we're in a space where we're challenging

00:30:16.420 --> 00:30:19.000
ideas and conventions and learning and exploring

00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:21.720
things on our own. And again, that just comes

00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:25.880
down to where we grow up and what we have access

00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:29.200
to in terms of our resources, our own open -mindedness

00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:31.660
and wanting to learn from others as opposed to

00:30:31.660 --> 00:30:35.039
just having certain assumptions. So I know that's

00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:38.299
kind of talking very broadly, but that's often

00:30:38.299 --> 00:30:39.940
there's a lot of different factors that play

00:30:39.940 --> 00:30:44.859
into possessing those connotations of of people.

00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:08.220
to make the dream a reality yeah well i mean

00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:11.660
i think the the general broad application is

00:31:11.660 --> 00:31:13.859
helpful as we think about it because i think

00:31:13.859 --> 00:31:17.079
anybody listening can say like okay in in our

00:31:17.079 --> 00:31:20.220
lives and the different facets of our lives in

00:31:20.220 --> 00:31:25.089
work in home in other spaces when when does that

00:31:25.089 --> 00:31:27.049
manifest when do we start allowing ourselves

00:31:27.049 --> 00:31:30.029
sometimes to maybe judge a little bit from lack

00:31:30.029 --> 00:31:32.430
of information and can we be open i think one

00:31:32.430 --> 00:31:34.910
of the things i heard you say is just like even

00:31:34.910 --> 00:31:36.849
people who are really aware of it can sometimes

00:31:36.849 --> 00:31:39.529
still make mistakes so what i would say is like

00:31:39.529 --> 00:31:42.130
if we're aware of it and we're willing to work

00:31:42.130 --> 00:31:44.869
on it and then when those things come up that

00:31:44.869 --> 00:31:47.329
we're not offended if somebody brings up to us

00:31:47.329 --> 00:31:49.750
that there may be we're not looking at the whole

00:31:49.750 --> 00:31:51.430
picture or maybe we are marginalizing somebody

00:31:51.430 --> 00:31:55.009
if we can be open to that and be willing to listen

00:31:55.009 --> 00:31:57.630
be willing to acknowledge that we could do things

00:31:57.630 --> 00:31:58.750
a little bit different i think that's really

00:31:58.750 --> 00:32:01.750
helpful in keeping the conversation going um

00:32:01.750 --> 00:32:04.650
you know when when we take a look back at the

00:32:04.650 --> 00:32:09.109
movie right um if we look at esmerelda so she

00:32:09.109 --> 00:32:11.289
herself obviously has been marginalized she's

00:32:11.289 --> 00:32:13.589
a gypsy and she's obviously looked down on by

00:32:13.589 --> 00:32:16.869
a lot of people but i think you kind of see her

00:32:16.869 --> 00:32:20.289
going through that with quasimodo right when

00:32:20.289 --> 00:32:22.190
she first encounters him she thinks he's wearing

00:32:22.190 --> 00:32:24.369
a mask because it's the fist of old fools and

00:32:24.369 --> 00:32:26.109
she thinks that he's like this is a really great

00:32:26.109 --> 00:32:28.970
mask that this guy's gone on and then initially

00:32:28.970 --> 00:32:31.289
like oh wait there's this kind of shocking reveal

00:32:31.289 --> 00:32:33.490
when she tries to pull the mask off and it's

00:32:33.490 --> 00:32:36.089
not actually a mask and it's him but then she

00:32:36.089 --> 00:32:38.450
started to kind of adopt this that later in the

00:32:38.450 --> 00:32:40.210
movie i wrote down this quote i want to get your

00:32:40.210 --> 00:32:42.950
take on of kind of like the role that maybe somebody

00:32:42.950 --> 00:32:45.650
can play in in supporting somebody who's marginalized

00:32:45.650 --> 00:32:49.430
where she's talking to i believe frollo and she

00:32:49.430 --> 00:32:51.769
says you mistreat this poor boy the same way

00:32:51.769 --> 00:32:54.829
you mistreat my people you speak of justice uh

00:32:54.829 --> 00:32:57.950
yet you are cruel to those most in need of your

00:32:57.950 --> 00:33:00.809
help and so i maybe give your take on like what's

00:33:00.809 --> 00:33:02.410
the role that somebody can play in supporting

00:33:02.410 --> 00:33:05.329
somebody else who might be marginalized yeah

00:33:05.329 --> 00:33:07.509
i mean i think this it's this notion of empathy

00:33:07.509 --> 00:33:11.519
that can transcend um even a specific community,

00:33:11.720 --> 00:33:14.440
right? This notion of what we say in a lot of

00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:16.579
space of being othered, right? Being viewed as

00:33:16.579 --> 00:33:20.940
the other or the different person. So, and I

00:33:20.940 --> 00:33:22.859
think, you know, that's why I think these are

00:33:22.859 --> 00:33:26.180
such great characters because Esmeralda really

00:33:26.180 --> 00:33:29.200
empathizes with Quasimodo, even though their

00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:32.119
lived experiences are different, despite the

00:33:32.119 --> 00:33:34.859
fact that, you know, Quasimodo's mom was a gypsy

00:33:34.859 --> 00:33:37.579
herself, like this notion of that they are shunned,

00:33:37.579 --> 00:33:41.599
they are viewed. in a very negative light, unfortunately

00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:46.400
so. And so we need to, it's so important to have

00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:50.660
folks in our world who not only have complementary

00:33:50.660 --> 00:33:53.839
experiences to our own, so who can provide like

00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:56.079
a different perspective, but to find what are

00:33:56.079 --> 00:33:59.039
those common threads in terms of, you know, maybe

00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:01.619
challenges that they faced by virtue of their,

00:34:01.740 --> 00:34:05.500
you know, lived experiences. And also realizing,

00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:08.000
you know, within any community, marginalized

00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:12.320
or not, there's a lot of diversity. So also realizing

00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:15.539
that just, you know, even two people within the

00:34:15.539 --> 00:34:18.320
same very limited space may have vastly different

00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:21.719
ways of having navigated the world or what their

00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:23.820
strengths are, what their challenges are. So

00:34:23.820 --> 00:34:26.420
Esmeralda, I think, is a... Lovely example of

00:34:26.420 --> 00:34:29.119
someone I think we all want to try to be, which

00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:34.059
is just really compassionate. And I like her

00:34:34.059 --> 00:34:35.579
feistiness, too, because I think we all need

00:34:35.579 --> 00:34:39.780
to have a bit of that. But there's a lot of good

00:34:39.780 --> 00:34:42.639
qualities that come through in how she interacts

00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:47.619
with the other characters. Yeah, for sure. Related

00:34:47.619 --> 00:34:50.059
to that, you know, the next kind of quote that

00:34:50.059 --> 00:34:54.940
I pulled was from Amy Edmondson. And one of the

00:34:54.940 --> 00:34:58.860
things that she said that I think is something

00:34:58.860 --> 00:35:00.340
that maybe we could dive into a little bit is

00:35:00.340 --> 00:35:03.059
she said low levels of psychological safety can

00:35:03.059 --> 00:35:06.719
create a culture of silence. And so when we look

00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:11.659
at, you know, creating psychological safety in

00:35:11.659 --> 00:35:13.840
the different environments we're in so that people

00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:17.900
can feel more empowered to be themselves. Right.

00:35:18.300 --> 00:35:21.800
What what perspective do you have? Maybe specifically

00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:24.820
as it relates to. uh to the things that you do

00:35:24.820 --> 00:35:28.659
um in the school of education over there um for

00:35:28.659 --> 00:35:32.480
helping those that are going to be in the education

00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:35.139
profession those that are going to be uh professors

00:35:35.139 --> 00:35:38.159
or teachers or in higher education like uh what

00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:41.300
what kind of things do you help your students

00:35:41.300 --> 00:35:43.820
learn and understand to create kind of these

00:35:43.820 --> 00:35:48.039
this psychological safety yeah gosh um that's

00:35:48.039 --> 00:35:51.079
a great question and i think it looks You know,

00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:53.340
it looks differently at different times and in

00:35:53.340 --> 00:35:57.480
different spaces, but fundamentally, like I'm

00:35:57.480 --> 00:36:00.619
in a position where as a college professor and

00:36:00.619 --> 00:36:03.480
working with folks who are themselves in education

00:36:03.480 --> 00:36:05.360
and wanting to ascend in their careers, like

00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:07.880
there's already some degree of shared understanding

00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:09.739
of here are the places we're a part of, right?

00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:11.920
Like I'm sure like you thinking about your own

00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:15.599
journey. Ryan, like, you know, being in spaces

00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:18.219
related to law, like there's certain things that

00:36:18.219 --> 00:36:21.239
like everybody understands and certain people

00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:24.260
and certain norms and whatnot. So like bottom

00:36:24.260 --> 00:36:26.179
line is I'm in the helping profession. I'm in

00:36:26.179 --> 00:36:30.400
a space where we're all focused on making other

00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:33.019
people's learning experiences and settings better.

00:36:33.099 --> 00:36:37.099
So baseline, I'm in it. in a really viable space

00:36:37.099 --> 00:36:40.500
for a lot of introspection and reflexivity. And

00:36:40.500 --> 00:36:42.539
when I interact with students for the first time,

00:36:42.619 --> 00:36:44.280
you know, I tell them a little bit about myself.

00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:47.260
I'm more interested in them than I am sharing

00:36:47.260 --> 00:36:50.739
about me, but I make it very clear that the settings

00:36:50.739 --> 00:36:53.139
that I try to create in my classroom are such

00:36:53.139 --> 00:36:57.480
that, you know, I want you all to kind of set

00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:59.539
expectations with me, like what type of environment

00:36:59.539 --> 00:37:01.599
do we want to build together? What are our expectations

00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:05.960
of one another? But also, You know, what can

00:37:05.960 --> 00:37:07.800
I do to make it a better environment for you?

00:37:07.900 --> 00:37:11.980
And I allow folks to demonstrate this anonymously

00:37:11.980 --> 00:37:14.940
if they so choose. So they, you know, I found

00:37:14.940 --> 00:37:16.440
out from folks about whether it be different

00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:19.599
disabilities they have or different life considerations

00:37:19.599 --> 00:37:22.440
they have, whether it's their working parents

00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:26.820
or they're taking care of someone who's ill or

00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:29.500
whatever the case may be. Elevating psychological

00:37:29.500 --> 00:37:36.269
safety in my mind is trying to kind of lay it

00:37:36.269 --> 00:37:38.690
all out in terms of like, here's what I'm going

00:37:38.690 --> 00:37:41.329
to contribute to the space. Here's how I'm showing

00:37:41.329 --> 00:37:44.710
up, right? Like I carry with me a lot of forms

00:37:44.710 --> 00:37:48.030
of privilege that may differ from y 'all. I also

00:37:48.030 --> 00:37:49.550
have some different forms of marginalization

00:37:49.550 --> 00:37:52.710
that you may or may not be aware of. And I share

00:37:52.710 --> 00:37:54.250
it so that you have a better understanding of

00:37:54.250 --> 00:37:57.550
how I'm approaching things. And I do think to

00:37:57.550 --> 00:37:59.949
some extent that that builds a degree of trust.

00:38:00.269 --> 00:38:04.059
But more than that, it's I think in how um how

00:38:04.059 --> 00:38:07.480
i engage with students and that i i want to create

00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:09.219
a shared learning experience i tell them you

00:38:09.219 --> 00:38:11.760
know i'm not the expert in everything and you're

00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:13.659
going to teach me stuff along the way and my

00:38:13.659 --> 00:38:16.440
even though i hold more power in this space than

00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:19.320
you um that doesn't mean that i'm not wanting

00:38:19.320 --> 00:38:23.820
to to learn and adapt and so i think that overall

00:38:23.820 --> 00:38:27.179
goes uh that goes well um and people respond

00:38:27.179 --> 00:38:29.440
favorably to that it doesn't mean that i haven't

00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:32.300
you know made mistakes and made adjustments and

00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:35.000
And how I've approached my teaching and other

00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:37.960
spaces. But I think psychological safety accounts,

00:38:38.139 --> 00:38:41.599
it translates to building a space where everybody

00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:44.579
feels welcomed and supported and can thrive.

00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:48.320
Like I, I'm particularly attuned to the fact

00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:54.059
that like, not all examples I bring about in

00:38:54.059 --> 00:38:57.619
class may resonate with folks, whether it be

00:38:57.619 --> 00:39:01.349
things in history of our field or even pop culture

00:39:01.349 --> 00:39:03.630
examples to try to make it more flavorful. And

00:39:03.630 --> 00:39:07.730
I try to be very self -deprecating and playful

00:39:07.730 --> 00:39:09.989
and make it not like this is my approach and

00:39:09.989 --> 00:39:12.110
I want you to feel like that, you know, you can

00:39:12.110 --> 00:39:14.369
laugh and have fun, that you can ask questions

00:39:14.369 --> 00:39:17.369
and not feel inhibited. I tell students, like,

00:39:17.449 --> 00:39:20.070
don't fall into learned helplessness. Don't.

00:39:20.250 --> 00:39:23.250
be in a space where you are afraid to ask for

00:39:23.250 --> 00:39:25.610
support. And ultimately, then you face later

00:39:25.610 --> 00:39:27.969
challenges down the line. I can't necessarily

00:39:27.969 --> 00:39:30.289
change how you experience things internally and

00:39:30.289 --> 00:39:33.050
how you've been taught to communicate ideas or

00:39:33.050 --> 00:39:36.690
share questions. But I can reinforce that, like,

00:39:36.750 --> 00:39:39.570
I'd rather you be proactive. And even if it's

00:39:39.570 --> 00:39:41.590
hard to ask for help or to not know how to do

00:39:41.590 --> 00:39:45.150
something to do that, as opposed to putting yourself

00:39:45.150 --> 00:39:47.829
in a compromised situation. So I think that too

00:39:47.829 --> 00:39:50.980
may also make them feel like they're in a safer

00:39:50.980 --> 00:39:53.719
environment. Yeah, I mean, I heard some really

00:39:53.719 --> 00:39:57.940
great things when it comes to creating that psychological

00:39:57.940 --> 00:40:01.000
safety. I mean, one is that you're opening up

00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:04.400
the discussion to find out what things they're

00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:06.280
looking for in the shared experience that you

00:40:06.280 --> 00:40:08.019
have and trying to create an environment where

00:40:08.019 --> 00:40:12.019
they can contribute and tell you those things.

00:40:12.699 --> 00:40:14.760
I also heard an acknowledgement that you make

00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:16.679
of like, hey, you're here to learn and I'm here

00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:19.159
to learn, too. I don't know everything. I think

00:40:19.159 --> 00:40:21.679
that's really important. Anytime there is going

00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:23.679
to be a power dynamic that exists, because obviously

00:40:23.679 --> 00:40:25.820
there is. You're the professor. They're the students.

00:40:25.880 --> 00:40:28.260
There obviously is. But acknowledging that you're

00:40:28.260 --> 00:40:31.460
willing to learn and that you're willing to listen,

00:40:31.699 --> 00:40:33.780
I think is very, very helpful. I also love how

00:40:33.780 --> 00:40:35.340
you talk about bringing in a little bit of levity.

00:40:36.099 --> 00:40:39.400
I think that's I think it's important in. um

00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:41.920
in a learning environment i think is important

00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:45.239
in um a work environment i think it's important

00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:49.900
in conversations um dr allison wood brooks she

00:40:49.900 --> 00:40:52.679
she has her acronym talk right if you've if you've

00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:54.500
heard of that and one of the key things that

00:40:54.500 --> 00:40:56.619
she talks about in quality conversations that

00:40:56.619 --> 00:40:59.059
the l and talk is for levity where you bring

00:40:59.059 --> 00:41:01.760
a little bit of humor because it tends to help

00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:04.300
help people just feel a little bit more comfortable

00:41:04.300 --> 00:41:06.639
right everything doesn't have to be super serious

00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:09.210
all the time bringing that levity can be really

00:41:09.210 --> 00:41:14.010
helpful what advice would you have for say people

00:41:14.010 --> 00:41:17.389
like myself who run a small business yes i'm

00:41:17.389 --> 00:41:18.929
a divorce attorney and certainly there's a component

00:41:18.929 --> 00:41:20.929
there uh we could maybe dive into after that

00:41:20.929 --> 00:41:24.230
but but i i run a small business and so i'm i'm

00:41:24.230 --> 00:41:25.789
working with people in an environment where i

00:41:25.789 --> 00:41:28.230
want to create that psychological safety there

00:41:28.230 --> 00:41:30.610
other small business owners you know i'm sure

00:41:30.610 --> 00:41:33.349
have similar things where they want people to

00:41:34.059 --> 00:41:36.079
feel like going to work as a place they want

00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:38.400
to be and that they can feel safe and accepted

00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:39.940
in those spaces what advice would you have for

00:41:39.940 --> 00:41:43.000
small business owners yeah no i mean i think

00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:45.980
those folks are and yourself like you're very

00:41:45.980 --> 00:41:48.860
well positioned to create that because there's

00:41:48.860 --> 00:41:51.460
fewer people to account for where it's like a

00:41:51.460 --> 00:41:54.500
shared shared experience like work i think about

00:41:54.500 --> 00:41:57.559
it like working on a on a team right so i don't

00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:01.289
have a small business but um but i led and worked

00:42:01.289 --> 00:42:03.670
on research teams where, you know, relatively

00:42:03.670 --> 00:42:06.969
small group, much like a class. And ultimately,

00:42:07.170 --> 00:42:10.670
how can you elevate that? It's through kind of

00:42:10.670 --> 00:42:13.349
sharing what your values are, you know, in a

00:42:13.349 --> 00:42:15.190
lot of workplaces, right? You know, there's either

00:42:15.190 --> 00:42:19.269
a mission statement or a webpage or something

00:42:19.269 --> 00:42:21.289
that illustrates, like, here's what we're prioritizing

00:42:21.289 --> 00:42:24.889
and having folks collectively work toward whatever

00:42:24.889 --> 00:42:27.329
those goals are, but also realizing that there's

00:42:27.329 --> 00:42:30.019
some degree of iteration depending on who's part

00:42:30.019 --> 00:42:31.739
of the conversation and knowing that things may

00:42:31.739 --> 00:42:37.340
change. It's being understanding and empathetic.

00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:41.300
And I think both things can be true. Like, you

00:42:41.300 --> 00:42:43.699
know, someone can be judgmental about things

00:42:43.699 --> 00:42:46.739
they don't like in terms of qualities, but at

00:42:46.739 --> 00:42:49.139
the same, like, for instance, like being late

00:42:49.139 --> 00:42:51.840
and not doing things, you know, in a timely fashion

00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:54.639
or whatever the case may be. Like my students

00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:57.340
know that I'm very precise about communicating

00:42:57.340 --> 00:43:00.619
and And making sure that things are done in a

00:43:00.619 --> 00:43:02.840
timely manner. And if not, like, you know, please,

00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:05.719
let's come up with some alternatives. But in

00:43:05.719 --> 00:43:08.179
terms of empathy, right, it's realizing that,

00:43:08.260 --> 00:43:11.059
you know, you don't always know, like when someone's

00:43:11.059 --> 00:43:12.780
showing up to work or showing up into a class,

00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:15.340
like what have they dealt with in the past 12

00:43:15.340 --> 00:43:21.780
or 24 hours with their families or their home

00:43:21.780 --> 00:43:24.699
situations, whatever the case may be. So I think

00:43:24.699 --> 00:43:27.210
a safe environment is one where you can. Allow

00:43:27.210 --> 00:43:30.710
others and allow yourself to be open to talking

00:43:30.710 --> 00:43:32.730
about things that are sometimes uncomfortable

00:43:32.730 --> 00:43:38.750
or not always quite, you know, according to what

00:43:38.750 --> 00:43:40.650
you have envisioned. But if you can allocate

00:43:40.650 --> 00:43:44.130
that space, you know, it can be helpful, right?

00:43:44.230 --> 00:43:47.690
Like I've worked with so many folks over the

00:43:47.690 --> 00:43:51.050
years where, you know. whether they had just

00:43:51.050 --> 00:43:55.389
lost someone right before class, a family member

00:43:55.389 --> 00:44:02.030
or pet, or dealing with financial concerns. Maybe

00:44:02.030 --> 00:44:05.590
I've had a few deal with natural disasters that

00:44:05.590 --> 00:44:10.570
have uprooted their kind of home life. So many

00:44:10.570 --> 00:44:13.150
different things. So a safe work environment

00:44:13.150 --> 00:44:16.010
or safe learning environment is such where you

00:44:16.010 --> 00:44:19.480
offer yourself to be supportive and open. and

00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:23.320
try to create a setting where they can feel like

00:44:23.320 --> 00:44:25.539
they can share and not just keep it all to themselves,

00:44:25.719 --> 00:44:28.559
but also still focusing on the task at hand.

00:44:28.619 --> 00:44:30.340
And if you need to, you know, make adjustments

00:44:30.340 --> 00:44:32.360
and then work toward that, that's all well and

00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:35.539
fine. Yeah, I mean, it's a great point, Brett,

00:44:35.619 --> 00:44:38.539
because, you know, as I think about, I think

00:44:38.539 --> 00:44:40.659
about that idea that I've heard from you a number

00:44:40.659 --> 00:44:42.719
of times is the empathy with those situations,

00:44:42.780 --> 00:44:48.820
you know, in my profession. We are dealing with

00:44:48.820 --> 00:44:50.480
people going through divorce all the time and

00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:53.219
with certain situations that occur. And then

00:44:53.219 --> 00:44:57.820
we have at times have had employees where a certain

00:44:57.820 --> 00:45:00.039
start time that we have normally for the office

00:45:00.039 --> 00:45:03.460
becomes very difficult because they are divorced

00:45:03.460 --> 00:45:05.239
or going through it. And now their responsibilities

00:45:05.239 --> 00:45:07.460
with kids in school are suddenly vastly different.

00:45:08.099 --> 00:45:11.420
And if all we do is just say like, hey, look,

00:45:11.559 --> 00:45:13.599
start time is this. No offense or buts about

00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:15.760
it. I don't care what the reason is. then it

00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:17.199
becomes harder to have that environment. But

00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:18.780
when we're willing to ask the questions, we're

00:45:18.780 --> 00:45:21.119
like, okay, why have you had a hard time getting

00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:23.940
to work on time? And they can feel safe enough

00:45:23.940 --> 00:45:25.320
to come to us and say, hey, yeah, I mean, look,

00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:28.079
I'm going through a divorce here and here's the

00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:29.960
situation I have and I've got to take the kids

00:45:29.960 --> 00:45:32.199
to school. And so I have a hard time getting

00:45:32.199 --> 00:45:34.719
to work at this time. Being willing to sometimes

00:45:34.719 --> 00:45:36.920
make adjustments when it's possible. Certain

00:45:36.920 --> 00:45:38.860
things aren't right. Like certain jobs that we

00:45:38.860 --> 00:45:40.360
have, there's just nothing you could do. But

00:45:40.360 --> 00:45:43.440
when there is room for that, being willing to,

00:45:44.269 --> 00:45:46.349
make those adjustments and make those accommodations

00:45:46.349 --> 00:45:48.869
for people so that they can come to us and we

00:45:48.869 --> 00:45:51.309
can work together to work on solutions and make

00:45:51.309 --> 00:45:54.250
things happen i do think to your point it just

00:45:54.250 --> 00:45:56.489
brings a little bit more of that having that

00:45:56.489 --> 00:45:57.989
empathy brings a little bit more of that safety

00:45:57.989 --> 00:45:59.570
there and when you have more safety i think people

00:45:59.570 --> 00:46:02.039
will will give better work, right? Whether or

00:46:02.039 --> 00:46:04.380
not it's a student who is able to learn more

00:46:04.380 --> 00:46:06.340
effectively or it's in a work environment where

00:46:06.340 --> 00:46:08.659
their work product improves, their customer service

00:46:08.659 --> 00:46:10.719
improves because you can create that environment.

00:46:10.860 --> 00:46:13.059
I think it's really, really important. I really

00:46:13.059 --> 00:46:14.460
appreciate what you're saying there, Brett. I

00:46:14.460 --> 00:46:17.960
like that a lot. One of the other things I want

00:46:17.960 --> 00:46:20.980
to ask you about is there's a quote here I've

00:46:20.980 --> 00:46:24.340
got from Brene Brown where it talks a little

00:46:24.340 --> 00:46:26.519
bit about some of these topics we've come up

00:46:26.519 --> 00:46:27.960
with and maybe a little bit different light on

00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:30.820
it. But what she said is, True belonging never

00:46:30.820 --> 00:46:33.920
asks us to change who we are. True belonging

00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:38.219
requires us to be who we are. And I just find

00:46:38.219 --> 00:46:41.460
that to be, I think it's timely. I think it's

00:46:41.460 --> 00:46:42.880
on point with the things that we're talking about.

00:46:42.940 --> 00:46:45.820
Let me get your take on that real quick. Yeah.

00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:50.260
Say the last part again. True belonging is. True

00:46:50.260 --> 00:46:53.860
belonging requires us to be who we are. Be who

00:46:53.860 --> 00:46:57.119
we are. Yeah. And I think that can take a while

00:46:57.119 --> 00:47:01.050
for so many of us. And I think. being who we

00:47:01.050 --> 00:47:04.190
are that that has so many different there's so

00:47:04.190 --> 00:47:05.690
many different ways to disentangle that right

00:47:05.690 --> 00:47:10.130
according to time context who we are with yeah

00:47:10.130 --> 00:47:14.690
where we're at in our lives and to kind of jump

00:47:14.690 --> 00:47:17.769
a little bit and kind of in my own timeline so

00:47:17.769 --> 00:47:19.750
we talked about me being homeschooled in middle

00:47:19.750 --> 00:47:21.610
high school years, I kept myself very isolated.

00:47:21.769 --> 00:47:23.710
I was trying to really make sense of like, how

00:47:23.710 --> 00:47:26.090
do I fit in the world? Because I feel very different

00:47:26.090 --> 00:47:29.150
than when I started community college. I was

00:47:29.150 --> 00:47:31.690
extremely scared. I was thinking, gosh, like,

00:47:31.789 --> 00:47:34.409
how am I going to navigate, you know, taking

00:47:34.409 --> 00:47:36.789
college courses, being in an unfamiliar space.

00:47:38.019 --> 00:47:40.460
and feeling like I could thrive. At the time,

00:47:40.460 --> 00:47:43.820
I wanted to be a journalist. Ultimately, things

00:47:43.820 --> 00:47:47.639
pivoted, but I was still able to harness my passion

00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:50.519
for writing into a research -related career in

00:47:50.519 --> 00:47:53.539
education. But going back to this point of being

00:47:53.539 --> 00:47:56.920
who you are, I think for so long, I held on to

00:47:56.920 --> 00:48:00.369
this notion of that. Much like Quasimodo. So

00:48:00.369 --> 00:48:03.070
try to full circle. I was afraid of like, would

00:48:03.070 --> 00:48:06.150
people judge me for being different? And for

00:48:06.150 --> 00:48:09.250
me, how that showed up as a 17 year old was like,

00:48:09.329 --> 00:48:12.789
I was very quiet. I was very introverted. I still

00:48:12.789 --> 00:48:15.010
had my distinct passions, but I didn't know how

00:48:15.010 --> 00:48:18.250
people would respond to that. And ultimately,

00:48:18.710 --> 00:48:22.530
I was starting a college in a space where a lot

00:48:22.530 --> 00:48:26.460
of people were significantly older than me. through

00:48:26.460 --> 00:48:29.519
a variety of different student leadership roles

00:48:29.519 --> 00:48:32.960
that I unexpectedly found myself in and ultimately

00:48:32.960 --> 00:48:36.119
making friends, which was really meaningful to

00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:39.980
me. I felt more at ease with, you know, the young

00:48:39.980 --> 00:48:43.719
guy who I was becoming and kind of the culmination

00:48:43.719 --> 00:48:45.619
of this that I talk about in a lot of different

00:48:45.619 --> 00:48:48.500
spaces because I view it as like a defining moment

00:48:48.500 --> 00:48:50.440
in my life was I was selected as our student

00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:53.980
commencement speaker and I was in front of a

00:48:53.980 --> 00:48:56.679
couple thousand people. I pretty much rehearsed

00:48:56.679 --> 00:49:01.760
this whole seven, 10 minute speech. And I basically

00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:03.920
told folks about my autism and they didn't know

00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:07.159
it. I kept it very tight to the vest. And I wanted

00:49:07.159 --> 00:49:10.199
to kind of illustrate that, you know, we all

00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:12.480
have different identities and life experiences

00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:17.039
and not everybody always sees them or understands

00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:20.639
them. You know, we're all seeking to expand our

00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:22.980
lives through education and pushing ourselves

00:49:22.980 --> 00:49:25.239
and challenging ourselves. And this is how it

00:49:25.239 --> 00:49:27.820
shows up for me. And belonging is being who you

00:49:27.820 --> 00:49:31.840
are. I had reached a point almost like some not

00:49:31.840 --> 00:49:34.199
quite self -actualization, but a point where

00:49:34.199 --> 00:49:36.460
I felt a lot more comfortable with who I was

00:49:36.460 --> 00:49:40.039
and where I could be more transparent about that.

00:49:40.219 --> 00:49:43.420
And that has shaped a lot of subsequent experiences

00:49:43.420 --> 00:49:47.150
where. I've tried to create spaces or be a part

00:49:47.150 --> 00:49:51.329
of spaces where folks can feel authentic and

00:49:51.329 --> 00:49:55.630
expressing themselves and in learning and being

00:49:55.630 --> 00:49:57.929
around others who sometimes have shared identities,

00:49:58.050 --> 00:50:00.690
but not always. I'm in a field of study where

00:50:00.690 --> 00:50:04.550
there's a lot of introspection and reflexivity.

00:50:04.670 --> 00:50:06.829
So I do research on autistic college students

00:50:06.829 --> 00:50:09.329
and disability and higher ed community colleges.

00:50:09.369 --> 00:50:12.260
So a lot of the stuff that I. Explore is closely

00:50:12.260 --> 00:50:14.780
connected to my own lived experiences, but I

00:50:14.780 --> 00:50:19.019
also realize that not everybody in those spaces

00:50:19.019 --> 00:50:21.760
I inherently relate to or understand or can appreciate

00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:24.760
because there's different experiences. But ultimately,

00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:28.159
it's this notion of wanting to create belonging.

00:50:28.360 --> 00:50:31.579
And that shapes both the spaces that I have control

00:50:31.579 --> 00:50:34.699
over, like a classroom or a research team, but

00:50:34.699 --> 00:50:39.380
also joining a space and wanting to elevate those

00:50:39.380 --> 00:50:43.960
considerations. So being who we are is important,

00:50:44.340 --> 00:50:47.280
but it requires folks who are holding some degree

00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:50.760
of influence to set those norms and not just

00:50:50.760 --> 00:50:54.360
talk the talk, but walk the walk. And that's

00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:57.920
not always an easy thing to do. Yeah, for sure.

00:50:58.019 --> 00:51:01.159
So when we go back to that commencement speech,

00:51:01.340 --> 00:51:04.519
what did that feel like emotionally? leading

00:51:04.519 --> 00:51:07.179
up to it as you're putting together what your

00:51:07.179 --> 00:51:09.099
speech is going to be and going to be talking

00:51:09.099 --> 00:51:11.079
about those things? What kind of emotions were

00:51:11.079 --> 00:51:14.039
experiencing leading up to it? Yeah, I mean,

00:51:14.059 --> 00:51:16.639
I don't know if I knew from the onset when I've

00:51:16.639 --> 00:51:18.539
selected that I was going to go quite that angle,

00:51:18.659 --> 00:51:21.559
but I felt like in many ways I had proven myself

00:51:21.559 --> 00:51:25.500
to others through, I mean, I led our campus newspaper,

00:51:25.719 --> 00:51:30.659
I led our honor society. I was very visible on

00:51:30.659 --> 00:51:33.639
campus and I felt like, you know what? I feel

00:51:33.639 --> 00:51:36.599
empowered and I feel empowered for people to

00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:39.739
hear about a different piece of me. People didn't

00:51:39.739 --> 00:51:42.559
know and not even back then in that context realized

00:51:42.559 --> 00:51:46.719
the amount of stress that I carried with me in

00:51:46.719 --> 00:51:50.500
trying to show up in spaces where I looked like

00:51:50.500 --> 00:51:53.820
I had a lot of it together, but I was just filled

00:51:53.820 --> 00:51:59.480
with anxiety and uncertainty. And so for me,

00:51:59.519 --> 00:52:03.050
I wanted to utilize that as a as an opportunity

00:52:03.050 --> 00:52:05.250
for empowerment, not only for myself, but also

00:52:05.250 --> 00:52:09.809
for others. And I mean, for all intents and purposes,

00:52:09.889 --> 00:52:12.750
this was 14 years ago now, and a lot's changed.

00:52:12.809 --> 00:52:16.250
And, you know, who knows who I graduated with

00:52:16.250 --> 00:52:19.309
or who was there, like, to what extent anything

00:52:19.309 --> 00:52:24.449
I said may have carried with them. But for me,

00:52:24.449 --> 00:52:27.639
at the very least, it was a chance to feel like

00:52:27.639 --> 00:52:29.900
that I literally had the stage. I had a lot of

00:52:29.900 --> 00:52:33.659
influence in that moment. And I think it's with

00:52:33.659 --> 00:52:36.579
that spirit that I try to carry with me in my

00:52:36.579 --> 00:52:42.199
subsequent work in roles where I want everybody's

00:52:42.199 --> 00:52:44.159
voice to matter and to feel like that they have

00:52:44.159 --> 00:52:46.340
the opportunity to share it, even if it's not

00:52:46.340 --> 00:52:48.880
standing in front of a podium, but rather, you

00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:51.380
know, maybe it's, you know, in a meeting among

00:52:51.380 --> 00:52:53.900
one small business for someone to, you know.

00:52:54.280 --> 00:52:56.500
raise their hand and question something that

00:52:56.500 --> 00:52:59.059
feels unsettling to them or to just elevate a

00:52:59.059 --> 00:53:02.659
question in a classroom. Little things make a

00:53:02.659 --> 00:53:06.079
difference. And if I can play a role in fostering

00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:08.559
settings that empower others, great. And also,

00:53:08.619 --> 00:53:11.360
I know that I may not always do things right

00:53:11.360 --> 00:53:14.000
along those lines in the spaces where I do carry

00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:17.260
that power. But anybody who knows me personally

00:53:17.260 --> 00:53:22.480
realizes my open us to adapt and hear others'

00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:24.679
feedback and to try to create a constructive

00:53:24.679 --> 00:53:28.960
shared space, if you will. Well, I mean, I guess

00:53:28.960 --> 00:53:30.420
what I'd say, let me toot your horn a little

00:53:30.420 --> 00:53:33.300
bit. I mean, certainly I'm sure that there was

00:53:33.300 --> 00:53:35.679
people there who were impacted by what you shared.

00:53:36.019 --> 00:53:40.219
And I'll go with our yes and. And like you said,

00:53:40.260 --> 00:53:42.360
you've shared it now since. It's shaped and affected

00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:46.760
what you've done since then. And you have created

00:53:46.760 --> 00:53:50.769
a career. out of of looking out for those people

00:53:50.769 --> 00:53:53.190
and helping uh people who may have felt that

00:53:53.190 --> 00:53:55.929
way or may feel that way and so you have your

00:53:55.929 --> 00:53:58.150
your career in academia doing that and you also

00:53:58.150 --> 00:54:00.349
have your podcast where you do that where you

00:54:00.349 --> 00:54:04.530
i i think really help people to build a sense

00:54:04.530 --> 00:54:06.530
of belonging when they might not otherwise help

00:54:06.530 --> 00:54:08.110
people who might feel a little bit marginalized

00:54:08.110 --> 00:54:09.869
to feel like they've got a place where they can

00:54:09.869 --> 00:54:12.730
come where they can be heard uh and that their

00:54:12.730 --> 00:54:16.289
their their impact matters that who they are

00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:20.039
and that everybody has something to contribute.

00:54:20.199 --> 00:54:24.519
So certainly that had impact then and continues

00:54:24.519 --> 00:54:26.400
to have impact in what you're doing with your

00:54:26.400 --> 00:54:28.179
career. So sorry, I said to toot your horn a

00:54:28.179 --> 00:54:29.619
little bit, Brad, okay? We got to give you some

00:54:29.619 --> 00:54:35.039
credit here, my man. Before we move to our this

00:54:35.039 --> 00:54:37.199
or that, wanted to get any kind of final thoughts

00:54:37.199 --> 00:54:40.920
you had about the hunchback of Notre Dame and

00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:43.460
about this kind of topic that we've been talking

00:54:43.460 --> 00:54:47.030
about. Yeah, no, I think it's a beautiful story.

00:54:47.170 --> 00:54:49.489
And the reason why I felt like that was because

00:54:49.489 --> 00:54:51.469
when we're kind of talking about potential directions

00:54:51.469 --> 00:54:54.010
to take the conversation and I mentioned Hunchback

00:54:54.010 --> 00:54:56.110
because it's very much always resonated with

00:54:56.110 --> 00:54:59.570
me. Like Quasimodo is kind of the archetype of

00:54:59.570 --> 00:55:02.050
someone who feels like an outsider, who feels,

00:55:02.070 --> 00:55:06.130
I think, some degree of shame for being different

00:55:06.130 --> 00:55:11.289
and fear of being treated poorly by others. And

00:55:11.289 --> 00:55:14.369
his story, I think, connects with a lot of people

00:55:14.369 --> 00:55:17.849
who are marginalized, especially folks who are

00:55:17.849 --> 00:55:20.829
disabled in the disability community. It's a

00:55:20.829 --> 00:55:22.650
story that I think has also connected with a

00:55:22.650 --> 00:55:27.630
lot of folks in the LGBTQ plus community for

00:55:27.630 --> 00:55:30.329
this notion of like masking, like trying to put

00:55:30.329 --> 00:55:34.610
on a different image just out of acceptance and

00:55:34.610 --> 00:55:37.409
self -protection. So there's different video

00:55:37.409 --> 00:55:39.840
essays and things online about. how Hunchback

00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:42.679
shows up in kind of those contexts. And so for

00:55:42.679 --> 00:55:47.199
me, and also as someone who's gay and who experiences

00:55:47.199 --> 00:55:50.460
different forms of non -apparent, maybe marginalization,

00:55:50.639 --> 00:56:01.039
I'm very mindful of stories that have that transferable

00:56:01.039 --> 00:56:03.199
quality. And I think Hunchback is one of those.

00:56:03.360 --> 00:56:06.119
And I think the takeaway is it's a story that

00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:09.909
really preaches um understanding and acceptance

00:56:09.909 --> 00:56:14.789
um and also this idea of going outside of your

00:56:14.789 --> 00:56:17.170
comfort zone and putting yourself out there um

00:56:17.170 --> 00:56:20.409
so i i think it has great value i don't think

00:56:20.409 --> 00:56:23.929
as a child i could have uh interpreted it from

00:56:23.929 --> 00:56:26.190
from that lens and i don't know if a lot maybe

00:56:26.190 --> 00:56:29.699
some kids are I do believe in the power of children

00:56:29.699 --> 00:56:33.139
being very intuitive and seeing things more than

00:56:33.139 --> 00:56:35.199
what maybe their parents or older people would

00:56:35.199 --> 00:56:38.559
expect of them. But I think as I've gone older,

00:56:38.739 --> 00:56:42.820
it's had further meaning because of those very

00:56:42.820 --> 00:56:48.039
pervasive values and priorities. Yeah, totally

00:56:48.039 --> 00:56:49.820
agree. Yeah, it's a great way to wrap that up.

00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:51.659
Thank you for sharing that. And thank you for

00:56:51.659 --> 00:56:54.780
sharing your thoughts about. um about this wonderful

00:56:54.780 --> 00:56:57.239
movie and and how it relates to you the ways

00:56:57.239 --> 00:56:59.420
that you uh have experienced things throughout

00:56:59.420 --> 00:57:01.199
your life and being very vulnerable with us we

00:57:01.199 --> 00:57:03.500
really appreciate that i think that there's a

00:57:03.500 --> 00:57:06.440
power in story and in both story disney stories

00:57:06.440 --> 00:57:08.719
but also in real stories too uh and the ways

00:57:08.719 --> 00:57:11.460
that people can connect with it um so thank you

00:57:11.460 --> 00:57:13.320
for sharing that so let's move to a couple fun

00:57:13.320 --> 00:57:16.130
segments Okay, so our first is going to be this

00:57:16.130 --> 00:57:19.670
or that. So just ask you this or that, and you

00:57:19.670 --> 00:57:21.690
kind of give me your thoughts, and we'll see

00:57:21.690 --> 00:57:23.309
where it goes. We'll see where it goes, okay?

00:57:23.769 --> 00:57:28.070
First one is Bell Tower or Court of Miracles?

00:57:30.070 --> 00:57:33.730
Oh, I thought the Bell Tower would be a cool

00:57:33.730 --> 00:57:38.269
place to be at in particular. Yeah, I mean, just

00:57:38.269 --> 00:57:40.670
the architecture is stunning. So I think for

00:57:40.670 --> 00:57:43.769
that alone, that stands out for me. Yeah, I like

00:57:43.769 --> 00:57:45.070
that. I like that answer. That's a good one.

00:57:45.429 --> 00:57:46.889
Okay, here's the next one. This one might be

00:57:46.889 --> 00:57:48.769
tough. It might not be, but it might be tough.

00:57:49.690 --> 00:57:55.369
Quasimodo or Esmeralda? Oh, they're both great

00:57:55.369 --> 00:57:58.610
characters. Let's just say Esmeralda. I think

00:57:58.610 --> 00:58:02.070
I really think I mean, I love the characters,

00:58:02.150 --> 00:58:04.050
but I also love the voice performances. And I

00:58:04.050 --> 00:58:06.610
think Demi Moore doesn't get enough credit for

00:58:06.610 --> 00:58:10.469
her just really. like sensitive but also fun

00:58:10.469 --> 00:58:14.590
voice work uh as esmeralda so yeah yeah terrific

00:58:14.590 --> 00:58:16.530
character she does a great job with that one

00:58:16.530 --> 00:58:21.929
for sure um okay a gargoyle sidekick or a human

00:58:21.929 --> 00:58:25.829
sidekick the gargoyles get so much flack they're

00:58:25.829 --> 00:58:30.329
fun i like them i do too they they add some levity

00:58:30.329 --> 00:58:33.469
yeah they do i i'm not mistaken was it jason

00:58:33.469 --> 00:58:37.849
alexander that was one of them he did hugo Yeah,

00:58:37.849 --> 00:58:40.550
that was back in like peak Seinfeld days. It

00:58:40.550 --> 00:58:44.030
was. I was a huge Seinfeld guy. I was like, I

00:58:44.030 --> 00:58:45.409
was born in the 80s. I was born in the early

00:58:45.409 --> 00:58:48.210
80s. So I was very much like, I'm starting to

00:58:48.210 --> 00:58:50.469
watch shows. My granddad watched a lot. Like

00:58:50.469 --> 00:58:53.130
he would record on a VHS and we'd go to his house

00:58:53.130 --> 00:58:55.570
on Sundays and he would like, so excited to put

00:58:55.570 --> 00:58:58.449
the VHS in to like show a Seinfeld and we sit

00:58:58.449 --> 00:59:00.429
there and watch it with them. So I love me some

00:59:00.429 --> 00:59:04.429
Jason Alexander. He's a great actor. Okay, how

00:59:04.429 --> 00:59:08.289
about Stained Glass Window? or the bell tower

00:59:08.289 --> 00:59:15.170
view oh boy i do love stained glass windows um

00:59:15.170 --> 00:59:17.949
even if i don't always love the content of it

00:59:17.949 --> 00:59:20.590
if it's like something that doesn't even resonate

00:59:20.590 --> 00:59:23.030
with me i think it's just such a cool form of

00:59:23.030 --> 00:59:27.809
artistry so yeah yeah i agree i when i I didn't

00:59:27.809 --> 00:59:29.510
really understand how stained glass was made.

00:59:29.570 --> 00:59:31.590
And then when I've seen a couple of things showing

00:59:31.590 --> 00:59:33.610
what they've got to do to make it and you're

00:59:33.610 --> 00:59:35.630
right, like the artistry of making it is just

00:59:35.630 --> 00:59:37.409
very impressive. I was impressed when somebody

00:59:37.409 --> 00:59:39.269
could do something that I know I can't do. I

00:59:39.269 --> 00:59:42.349
was like, wow, that's really good. That's amazing.

00:59:44.130 --> 00:59:45.730
OK, how about we're going to widen this a little

00:59:45.730 --> 00:59:50.389
bit? How about fiction or nonfiction book? OK,

00:59:50.449 --> 00:59:52.929
so most of the books, almost all the books I

00:59:52.929 --> 00:59:55.409
think behind me are all Disney nonfiction books.

00:59:55.789 --> 01:00:01.190
So that's I even though I enjoy the stories associated

01:00:01.190 --> 01:00:05.590
with the world of Disney in terms of from a visual

01:00:05.590 --> 01:00:08.989
storytelling fashion, in terms of reading, I'm

01:00:08.989 --> 01:00:11.630
more of a nonfiction guy. OK, nonfiction it is.

01:00:11.670 --> 01:00:14.349
I like it. And the last this or that physical

01:00:14.349 --> 01:00:18.469
book or audio book? Physical. I like being able

01:00:18.469 --> 01:00:19.489
to hold something in my hands. You like the tactile

01:00:19.489 --> 01:00:22.070
physical book. Yeah. And I like being able to

01:00:22.070 --> 01:00:24.289
have them on a bookcase, man. See, that's the

01:00:24.289 --> 01:00:26.130
part I miss out on because I don't. Because I'm

01:00:26.130 --> 01:00:28.309
an audiobook guy through and through. I've got

01:00:28.309 --> 01:00:31.909
hundreds of titles in my Audible. But then I

01:00:31.909 --> 01:00:34.030
don't get to have stuff in my bookshelf. I look

01:00:34.030 --> 01:00:36.630
at a couple of books. Although I did notice,

01:00:36.829 --> 01:00:38.469
and I noticed this when we talked before, we

01:00:38.469 --> 01:00:40.590
do have one in common, The Dream Chasing by Bob

01:00:40.590 --> 01:00:43.510
Weiss. I've got that one as well. Love that book.

01:00:43.869 --> 01:00:47.010
Bob Weiss, such an inspiration. That guy is amazing.

01:00:47.809 --> 01:00:50.469
All right, let's hit our rapid fire before we

01:00:50.469 --> 01:00:52.449
get to our three actual takeaways in the last

01:00:52.449 --> 01:00:54.329
couple of minutes we have. So favorite Disney

01:00:54.329 --> 01:00:57.949
movie? Would be Toy Story. Okay, I meant to ask

01:00:57.949 --> 01:01:01.030
you. So Toy Story is your favorite. When I went

01:01:01.030 --> 01:01:03.210
back and listened to your very first episode

01:01:03.210 --> 01:01:05.750
of Notably Disney, you mentioned that Toy Story

01:01:05.750 --> 01:01:08.849
4 was about to come out. And now we have Toy

01:01:08.849 --> 01:01:11.369
Story 5. I want to get your quick take. Toy Story

01:01:11.369 --> 01:01:13.289
4, what did you actually think? And what do you

01:01:13.289 --> 01:01:17.170
think about Toy Story 5? Toy Story 4 is underwhelming

01:01:17.170 --> 01:01:21.050
and I think disappointing because a lot of the

01:01:21.050 --> 01:01:24.130
characters that we love get kind of pushed to

01:01:24.130 --> 01:01:26.889
the side. Even though the Woody and Bo story

01:01:26.889 --> 01:01:30.329
is endearing, it's like... You basically have

01:01:30.329 --> 01:01:32.670
like Slinky Dog or Rex have like a couple lines

01:01:32.670 --> 01:01:36.510
each. And it's like, that's not satisfying. Yeah,

01:01:36.570 --> 01:01:38.650
Toy Story 4 has its value. And I think in the

01:01:38.650 --> 01:01:41.570
pantheon of animated films, it's a great film.

01:01:41.650 --> 01:01:46.050
But because it doesn't hold up to its predecessors,

01:01:46.230 --> 01:01:48.690
it's like, it's the weakest one of the five.

01:01:48.989 --> 01:01:52.650
Five, I think, bumps things back up in a good

01:01:52.650 --> 01:01:57.440
direction. nice full circle jesse story and there's

01:01:57.440 --> 01:01:59.900
some connections to themes from the earlier films

01:01:59.900 --> 01:02:03.840
i think it's a solid entry yeah i completely

01:02:03.840 --> 01:02:05.780
agree i don't have anything to add because that

01:02:05.780 --> 01:02:07.719
is so exactly the way that i felt about both

01:02:07.719 --> 01:02:10.099
of them so we are spot on there all right this

01:02:10.099 --> 01:02:12.980
is going to be a good one too because uh of the

01:02:12.980 --> 01:02:16.000
themes of your podcast favorite disney song yeah

01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:18.880
i don't think i have one um i don't think i have

01:02:18.880 --> 01:02:22.070
one singular song give me a top five Yeah, my

01:02:22.070 --> 01:02:24.449
top five, I was just going to say. So Out There

01:02:24.449 --> 01:02:31.710
is in the top five. Incredible. Belle from Beauty

01:02:31.710 --> 01:02:34.730
and the Beast, our opening five, six minute number.

01:02:34.929 --> 01:02:37.849
So good. It's such a perfect start to that movie.

01:02:38.030 --> 01:02:41.429
Oh, just yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Alan Menken had

01:02:41.429 --> 01:02:45.070
some some rock and opening songs for some. So

01:02:45.070 --> 01:02:49.230
I would also add Part of Your World from The

01:02:49.230 --> 01:02:52.960
Little Mermaid. A Whole New World from Aladdin.

01:02:53.559 --> 01:02:56.699
So Mencken pretty much just has it all covered.

01:02:57.199 --> 01:03:00.300
And then I would probably add kind of more of

01:03:00.300 --> 01:03:02.079
one of the older songs. I would go with When

01:03:02.079 --> 01:03:04.679
You Wish Upon a Star because of the significance.

01:03:04.800 --> 01:03:08.500
But I mean, it's kind of the emblematic Disney

01:03:08.500 --> 01:03:10.840
song. It's the anthem, I should say. It's the

01:03:10.840 --> 01:03:14.039
anthem. Yeah, that's a great list, Brett. That

01:03:14.039 --> 01:03:16.000
is a terrific list. I love it. Okay, favorite

01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:19.000
Disney princess? Belle. Bell, she's books. You

01:03:19.000 --> 01:03:21.480
love books. So it totally makes sense. Yeah,

01:03:21.599 --> 01:03:24.739
she's she's she's smart. She questions convention.

01:03:25.480 --> 01:03:29.760
She she holds she's very firm in her values and

01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:32.460
what matters. She's a she's a great role model

01:03:32.460 --> 01:03:36.320
for any of us, men or women or or any other gender.

01:03:36.400 --> 01:03:40.260
She's just just a terrific character. Yeah, she's

01:03:40.260 --> 01:03:42.840
amazing. OK, favorite Disney park. I would probably

01:03:42.840 --> 01:03:45.539
say Disneyland. in California, probably because

01:03:45.539 --> 01:03:48.239
of the typical answer, right? It was Waltz Park.

01:03:48.480 --> 01:03:51.099
He built it from scratch. It's evolved. It has

01:03:51.099 --> 01:03:53.820
its flaws, but it has so much charm. Epcot's

01:03:53.820 --> 01:03:56.179
a close second. Actually, I did my undergraduate

01:03:56.179 --> 01:04:00.840
honors thesis on Epcot, and I love Epcot. Epcot's

01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:03.400
had an identity crisis for a while, and that

01:04:03.400 --> 01:04:05.639
makes it a little bit more challenging to...

01:04:06.159 --> 01:04:08.500
um to embrace in quite the same ways because

01:04:08.500 --> 01:04:12.840
it's just um it's disjointed but um i but i still

01:04:12.840 --> 01:04:15.360
love epcot and what it represents disneyland

01:04:15.360 --> 01:04:19.719
is most consistent in terms of um what it's aimed

01:04:19.719 --> 01:04:22.780
to represent which is different worlds of fantasy

01:04:22.780 --> 01:04:26.940
and tomorrow and um wonder adventure all the

01:04:26.940 --> 01:04:32.059
things yeah great answers um okay favorite let's

01:04:32.059 --> 01:04:36.199
go with the favorite disney book I don't know

01:04:36.199 --> 01:04:39.420
if I can answer that. I feel like if I answer

01:04:39.420 --> 01:04:41.800
it one way, like I might offend like other authors.

01:04:41.820 --> 01:04:44.639
Maybe give me an under the radar pick. Maybe

01:04:44.639 --> 01:04:46.739
something that our listeners maybe haven't picked

01:04:46.739 --> 01:04:48.440
up that they could. Maybe something you've read

01:04:48.440 --> 01:04:49.800
recently. You're like, hey, this was really great.

01:04:50.900 --> 01:04:53.619
Yeah, it's not a recent one that I've read, but

01:04:53.619 --> 01:04:55.880
I don't know how under the radar it is. But many

01:04:55.880 --> 01:04:58.039
folks are probably familiar with the incredible

01:04:58.039 --> 01:05:01.320
Leslie Iwerks documentary, The Imagineering Story.

01:05:02.590 --> 01:05:04.690
Everybody may not know is that there's a complimentary

01:05:04.690 --> 01:05:11.849
book that's hundreds of pages that expands the

01:05:11.849 --> 01:05:17.409
scope and level of depth of the different attractions

01:05:17.409 --> 01:05:20.090
and parks and Imagineers that are showcased.

01:05:20.170 --> 01:05:24.190
It's a fantastic nonfiction read. It is a tome

01:05:24.190 --> 01:05:27.750
and it will take a while to read, but it really

01:05:27.750 --> 01:05:31.090
uncovers a lot that. the documentary only scratches

01:05:31.090 --> 01:05:34.250
the surface of because of just length and format

01:05:34.250 --> 01:05:36.969
and whatnot so i would say check out that book

01:05:36.969 --> 01:05:39.090
well we're going to put a link to that in the

01:05:39.090 --> 01:05:41.289
show notes my producer will put that in our show

01:05:41.289 --> 01:05:42.769
notes make sure we link that up so people can

01:05:42.769 --> 01:05:45.710
find that well uh brett thank you so much for

01:05:45.710 --> 01:05:47.829
being on thank you for spending your time with

01:05:47.829 --> 01:05:50.239
us for having a little fun with us It's kind

01:05:50.239 --> 01:05:52.320
of a closing. We always like to give our listeners

01:05:52.320 --> 01:05:54.800
three actionable takeaways, something they could

01:05:54.800 --> 01:05:57.199
put into effect in their lives today or this

01:05:57.199 --> 01:06:00.539
week. What would be your three recommended actionable

01:06:00.539 --> 01:06:05.119
takeaways? Yeah, yeah. And I was trying to think

01:06:05.119 --> 01:06:07.400
of what would be good ones to hit on here. And

01:06:07.400 --> 01:06:10.039
I think some of these. Most of these allude to

01:06:10.039 --> 01:06:12.260
some topics we've already discussed, Ryan. I

01:06:12.260 --> 01:06:16.639
think for one, a big part of my journey has been

01:06:16.639 --> 01:06:19.920
just learning to do things on my own and kind

01:06:19.920 --> 01:06:23.539
of coming into my own, taking certain agency

01:06:23.539 --> 01:06:25.780
and advocacy for myself. And I think those are

01:06:25.780 --> 01:06:30.780
universal themes. So I guess one actionable tool

01:06:30.780 --> 01:06:33.039
is like realize you can do things on your own

01:06:33.039 --> 01:06:35.309
and know that you have. resources that can support

01:06:35.309 --> 01:06:37.349
you. So that goes back to the notion of like

01:06:37.349 --> 01:06:40.650
creating a welcoming business or classroom or

01:06:40.650 --> 01:06:43.789
atmosphere where you want to empower people to

01:06:43.789 --> 01:06:46.349
feel like they can do stuff on their own, but

01:06:46.349 --> 01:06:49.650
also like reassure them that like there are people

01:06:49.650 --> 01:06:53.769
and tools that can and will support you. So I

01:06:53.769 --> 01:06:57.710
want to really reinforce that. I also, and I

01:06:57.710 --> 01:07:01.010
think the second item might or takeaway might

01:07:02.400 --> 01:07:04.860
be applicable to our discussion in terms of,

01:07:04.860 --> 01:07:07.619
I like to view every day as a learning experience

01:07:07.619 --> 01:07:09.539
and see what you can take with you to future

01:07:09.539 --> 01:07:13.699
situations. We're talking a lot about, you know,

01:07:13.699 --> 01:07:17.420
empathizing with others and trying to support

01:07:17.420 --> 01:07:19.679
others who may have different life experiences.

01:07:19.980 --> 01:07:23.199
And that also relates to, like, if you say or

01:07:23.199 --> 01:07:26.320
do something that's not quite right and trying

01:07:26.320 --> 01:07:31.250
to make pivots to be more, you know, patient

01:07:31.250 --> 01:07:34.630
with yourself and extend patience toward others

01:07:34.630 --> 01:07:38.630
and be empathetic, all the things. So I try to,

01:07:38.650 --> 01:07:40.670
especially when I have hard days, right, I try

01:07:40.670 --> 01:07:42.210
to view each day as a learning experience. Like,

01:07:42.210 --> 01:07:43.949
what did I come away from today in terms of a

01:07:43.949 --> 01:07:46.050
conversation I had, something I learned from

01:07:46.050 --> 01:07:49.550
others, something I discovered about myself.

01:07:50.010 --> 01:07:54.210
I think that has a lot of universal value. And

01:07:54.210 --> 01:07:56.510
then third takeaway was, like, challenge yourself

01:07:56.510 --> 01:08:00.360
to think more of what you can accomplish. A lot

01:08:00.360 --> 01:08:03.639
of my life, I think, and I think many people

01:08:03.639 --> 01:08:05.860
can relate to this notion, is trying to defy

01:08:05.860 --> 01:08:09.880
other expectations of what you could be. And

01:08:09.880 --> 01:08:12.659
I think I had a lot of resources available to

01:08:12.659 --> 01:08:16.899
me in terms of being able to work on the things

01:08:16.899 --> 01:08:19.659
I had challenges with and also capitalizing on

01:08:19.659 --> 01:08:21.819
my strengths. And that's something that I really

01:08:21.819 --> 01:08:23.840
focus on in working with others is like, how

01:08:23.840 --> 01:08:27.710
do we leverage what is... really unique and really

01:08:27.710 --> 01:08:31.449
special and how do we try to work through, whether

01:08:31.449 --> 01:08:34.229
it's like a skill or a particular thing about

01:08:34.229 --> 01:08:37.229
students or whatever, like how do we try to adjust

01:08:37.229 --> 01:08:42.010
the things that are not quite on par? And so

01:08:42.010 --> 01:08:45.189
I really try to push others to think of like,

01:08:45.329 --> 01:08:48.329
you can do a lot more than you believe. You just

01:08:48.329 --> 01:08:51.710
need to be around people who foster that sentiment

01:08:51.710 --> 01:08:55.699
and environment of building on strengths. And

01:08:55.699 --> 01:08:57.960
I think that's something that we all can embrace.

01:08:59.020 --> 01:09:01.359
There's so much more that we can do than we realize.

01:09:02.020 --> 01:09:06.399
We just can't feel inhibited. So it comes down

01:09:06.399 --> 01:09:10.100
to other people who carry more influence and

01:09:10.100 --> 01:09:14.119
can support you to reinforce this notion. Yeah,

01:09:14.180 --> 01:09:15.739
you can do a lot more. So you need that external

01:09:15.739 --> 01:09:18.859
validation, but you also need it in here internally.

01:09:19.260 --> 01:09:21.399
Yeah. I love it. That's absolutely fantastic.

01:09:22.060 --> 01:09:25.239
And, you know, in the spirit of learning as well,

01:09:25.279 --> 01:09:26.699
anybody who's listening to this, hopefully you're

01:09:26.699 --> 01:09:29.619
taking notes. Hopefully you took some great things

01:09:29.619 --> 01:09:33.539
away because this episode was just full of just

01:09:33.539 --> 01:09:35.960
great things from Brett. And he was so gracious

01:09:35.960 --> 01:09:37.979
to share his time with us today. Thank you so

01:09:37.979 --> 01:09:41.500
much, Brett, for spending some great time with

01:09:41.500 --> 01:09:43.720
us. Really looking forward to what people can

01:09:43.720 --> 01:09:45.640
learn from you and from your experiences. So

01:09:45.640 --> 01:09:48.970
thank you so much. Yeah, my pleasure, Ryan. Really

01:09:48.970 --> 01:09:51.050
appreciate the space that you create via this

01:09:51.050 --> 01:09:54.810
podcast. I think it's a unique and special podcast

01:09:54.810 --> 01:09:57.550
in the Disney universe and really elevating storytelling

01:09:57.550 --> 01:10:00.729
and takeaways and lessons. So I appreciate being

01:10:00.729 --> 01:10:02.670
part of the conversation. Thank you so much,

01:10:02.670 --> 01:10:06.649
my man. As you leave this conversation, remember

01:10:06.649 --> 01:10:09.689
that yes, the past can hurt and you can either

01:10:09.689 --> 01:10:13.029
run from it or you can learn from it. So here's

01:10:13.029 --> 01:10:16.699
to learning and finding joy in the journey. See

01:10:16.699 --> 01:10:17.159
you real soon.