Encanto and Breaking Generational Trauma | Cindy Chia on Healing What Was Never Spoken

0:00 I went through some kind of a childhood abuse from my dad. I grew up with a really angry dad. So when I watched Encanto, I was crying because it was so much of that generational trauma, breaking generational trauma, right? Yeah. Like not having any support, no network, you don't know anybody, no friends or family, especially being a foreigner. How relatable is Lalisa, honestly? Like, she can't show any cracks. Right. She can't because she has to be strong. She has to do everything that she's asked to do. So that the family can stay strong. So the family can keep doing things to serve others. And meanwhile, she is experiencing the insecurity and the weight of it all. In my perspective, Bruno was also the only one who told the truth. Yeah. That nobody was ready for it. So they exiled him. So I spent a lot of time being angry. But then I realized that anger is not bringing me anywhere. But as an adult, you have to realize your life is what you make out of it. Life is too short to live in your own BS. The BS is what's keeping us from feeling true to ourselves. Living a true life, like a very authentic life. I wear fur coat to the gym.

1:11 Do I care? No. Do you like it? Because I love it! Welcome to Yes And Land, where we say yes to the reality of yesterday and today. And we say and to the possibility... growth, and imagination of tomorrow. Welcome to our next episode of Yes and Land. We're very excited to have Cindy with us today. Thank you, Ryan. We're talking about some fun things. I'm actually here to learn. In kind of our prep, we talked about the topic today. I thought, okay, this is something I don't know a lot about. And I'm just going to take the opportunity during this conversation to really learn. But also we're going to do it through the lens of my favorite, which is Encanto. Yay.

2:00 Absolutely love Encanto so much. It's so good. We were doing a little pre -recording listening to one of the songs too. Kind of got me in the mood. I love it. Encanto is such a good one. It was interesting. I usually try to watch the night before the movie that we're going to talk about just to make sure I'm like. Ready to go? Yeah. Like I didn't need to rewatch this one. No. I've watched this so many times. So many times, right? I'm like, I'm excited. This is good. Yeah. So what I want to do to kind of get us kicked off, Cindy, is if you want to just talk a little bit about kind of your background, what you do professionally. And then we kind of explore kind of how you got there. Because I always just love hearing about somebody's story themselves personally, like how they got to be doing the things they do. We'd love to have really cool and interesting people on. And you're certainly one of those. So I'd love for people to learn about your background. And then we can kind of dive into the topic and then talk about the movie.

2:49 Yeah, let's go. So my name is Cindy Chia, born and raised in Malaysia. Malaysia, so interesting. Yeah. So in Malaysia, it's, you know, in the Asian continent. So a lot of that cultural stigma. surrounding mental health still to this day. I went through some kind of a childhood abuse from my dad. I grew up with a really angry dad. So when I watch Encanto, ah, I was crying because there was so much of that generational trauma, breaking generational trauma, right? I can relate so much with Mirabelle, who was the one who actually kind of... took that step forward for the family. So my background comes from trauma. And then I went into psychology wanting to heal myself.

3:33 No, actually, I went into psychology wanting to heal other people first. Of course. Okay, of course. Everybody else is the one that's got the problem. They got to get fixed. It's not me. Exactly. Yes, exactly. Everyone else's problem. I want to help other people. That was my goal to go into psychology. Okay, so I have a question for you, though, about Malaysia. Yes. What's the culture like there? Especially when it comes to men. Yeah. And the way that they interact with women, with their wives, with their daughters. How is that different from American culture if there are any differences? I just don't know Malaysia really much at all. Love it. I love talking about Malaysia. So Malaysia is a Muslim country. So a lot of the laws are written according to the Muslim law. So in some states, there are still men and women cannot walk together or cannot hold hands out in public. You have to have your own lane. movie theaters as well. Men and women have to be separated. So there's still some kind of segregation. Where I come from, the state of Sarawak, we are more harmonious. We live more harmoniously. We have a lot of cultures there.

4:38 So my grandparents immigrated from China. And there's a lot of people that immigrated from India as well. And there's the locals, Malays, Indonesia, and a lot of other countries as well. So it's kind of like a melting pot. So the gender roles are... still pretty prominent i would say like the men are the decision maker the breadwinner and all of those things um it's changing though i mean as as the world's changing is changing to that um i talked i talked to a lady who had from here from uh the states And had gone to live there for a year with her husband. In Malaysia? Uh -huh. Oh, I didn't know that. And she said that it was just very different, a bit of a culture shock. And about halfway into their stay there, she went to go get her hair cut. And she wanted to have it cut quite a bit different. Like she was going to take a bunch of length off and have it cut pretty short. Uh -oh. Yes. Uh -oh is the right thing because you know exactly where it's going. Yeah. Because the guy that was going to cut her hair was like, oh, I can't do it without your husband's permission. She was like, oh, no, no, it's just my hair. I just want to cut my hair. He's like, oh, no, no. Like, I have to have his permission. Okay. And basically the way that she had described it was like it wasn't really that this hairdresser was like trying to do anything wrong. Yeah. He had just been burned before. Right, right. Like he had cut a woman's hair and then the husband came in and like. What did you do? Yeah. Like he was in big trouble because he didn't have the sign off.

5:56 Oh, wow. And this was probably, I don't know, seven, eight years ago that she was there. Sure, I think not that long ago. And so it was just interesting because it was such a different experience that she had there. And she wasn't describing it in a negative way. She actually loved her time in Malaysia. She just thought it was a really, really wonderful, great experience to get out and experience something different. But something was a little bit different culturally. Yeah, she would probably be in the more conservative state. So I would say it goes by state to state. So the one that the state I'm from, they're pretty cool in general. And we celebrate each other's celebration. too so for example over here you guys usually do what Christmas Thanksgiving right over there we have Christmas we celebrate Christmas Chinese New Year the Muslim New Year the Deepavali so there's what was that last one Deepavali what's that Diwali We call it Diwali over there. And Gawai, which is the indigenous New Year as well.

6:49 So we celebrate. I only know Diwali from The Office. Have you ever seen The Office? No, I haven't. Oh, it's so great. They're celebrating Diwali because one of their employees does. And so the main character, played by Steve Carell, goes and he has this little song about... And it's really hilarious. It's really great, actually. Great episode. I was like, okay, that actually looks like really fun. Like, I want to celebrate Diwali. Yeah, lots of colors, lots of food. Yeah, lots of people. So, okay, so that's kind of where you grow up. What brings you to the United States? How did that happen? Yeah, so I went to school. I pursued my undergrad in Australia. Didn't really have a good time there. I would say it was about 20 years ago now, but still not a long time ago.

7:34 A lot of racism there. People would throw water bottles at me, eggs at me when I'm walking down the street. It's just not a great experience. No. No, it was. And, you know, the narrative there. Yeah, the racism is just kind of hard. I wouldn't say it's everybody though, right? You get some bad eggs here and there. So I didn't have a good experience. I got a scholarship to study abroad anywhere I wanted. I initially wanted to go to England because I loved their accent. I was learning English. I wanted to have an English accent. Of course. But I would have been the only one there kind of like in Australia. So I didn't want to have a repeat of being alone. So I picked America. I picked Oklahoma. Oklahoma. Oklahoma. Because my cousin's there. Oklahoma. You're like, of all the states in the United States, it's Oklahoma. All right, let's go. I had the best time. Good. Oh, my gosh. I'm having the best time in the U .S. for sure. I feel like the psychology field here is so much, so diverse.

8:25 And I learned so much. So this is a place for me to grow my career for sure. What school did you go to in Oklahoma? University of, sorry, Oklahoma State and then University of Central Oklahoma. Okay. And enjoyed both those universities? Yeah. I work with Robert Sternberg. I don't know if you know. He's like one of the biggest psychologists in the world. Really? Yeah, crazy. He developed the love triangle and all of this philosophy. So really cool. So you were learning from one of the experts in the field. Yeah. Which had to be just an amazing experience. Amazing. And we did research together and we did conferences and presentations and all of that. So I had a great time. Yeah. Very grateful. So you finish up your studies there and then did you end up practicing there or did you come straight to Utah or what happened? Yeah. So I did my fellowship in Harvard in Boston. Oh, in Boston. Yeah. That's kind of fun. It was fun. I would have lived there if I could. How come you didn't? Well, it was for a boy. My ex -husband's from here, so I had to move here. It's all good, but in Harvard.

9:33 Boston's great, though. Yeah, so great. I learned so much there. So I worked with Mona Westmark, Dr. Westmark, who also is a war renown. So her parents was in a concentration camp from the Nazi. Oh, my goodness. So she was doing research about breaking generational trauma, which is so great, which is something that I was passionate about, breaking generational trauma in the Asian culture, too. So she was doing it with the Jews and the black slaves, like research on those, the owner of black slaves, and I was doing the research on Asian families. So it was so groundbreaking. Yeah, that's great. So was she at Harvard? Is that what you said? Yeah, she was at Harvard. So you're there in Boston. You're doing something with someone who's at Harvard, which is like one of the preeminent institutions really in the world, certainly in the United States. That would be a great experience. A great experience.

10:17 So grateful for that, honestly. What was your favorite thing about Boston? People. Okay. Tell me more. Tell me more. is a bit biased because i feel like i was surrounded so i was in cambridge you know i live on campus and everything so i was surrounded by students mostly right and all of them are mostly international students um just like how open people are and how how just like, I don't know, like they just don't judge you. Like I come from this and I eat this and all of that. Like I feel like I get a lot more scrutinies here. Like, oh, why are you eating fish for lunch? You know, kind of stuff like that. But like in Boston, I just felt very included in general. That's great. I didn't have to explain myself. Yeah. Which is such a hard thing to do sometimes. Absolutely it is. And when you feel like you can just be yourself. Yeah. Right? Right.

11:10 I know we're talking about Disney stuff, but to take it to K -pop Demon Hunters, if you're familiar with that. I love those too. I remember hearing a couple of interviews with the ladies that are the singers for it, right? Because I think that actresses that played the voices when they're regular talking were different than those that sang. And those that sang, one in particular wrote it. Now her name escapes me right now. But I remember her talking about when they were... watching the movie back the first time right when it was totally done and they're watching it and one of the gals had said that it was a really cool scene for her when they're in the plane at the very beginning of the movie you familiar with this and they're eating some particular kind of food And it was like this flood of emotion, she said, that came to her because when she was growing up with the Korean food that she would be eating at school, she would feel judged. And so she would like try to hide that she was eating.

12:03 She would hide it in her paper lunch sack and she would quickly try to eat it so no one could see her eating it. And that now she's being part of this movie that's this phenomenon. And they're eating the very foods that she ate, that she grew up with, that she loved. And it was out there for everyone. And it was just this amazing experience for her because she didn't have to hide it. I just thought, oh, my goodness. It was just like, oof. And it's something small like food. Everybody eats something. And why do some people have to hide it and some people don't? And you don't want to have to be judged by eating something that. You love. That's part of your culture. You just grew up eating. Yeah. You don't want to explain yourself. Yeah. So I'm glad that was your experience in Boston.

12:45 That's really great. Yeah. Another reason for me to like Boston. Yay. I've only been once, and I thought it was absolutely terrific. We only spent a couple of days there, and I thought, I've got to spend some more time here. It was so fun. I mean, the people, the history, the culture, the places. It's just amazing. Yeah. No doubt. I mean, Utah is great, too. Utah has some great things, for sure. Utah has some great things. So you're in Boston. You're doing your research there. Then where do you go from there? Then Utah. Okay, then Utah. Yeah. So I started my residency in a big private practice here and then I started my own private practice now with Spire Psychological in Riverton. And okay, so talk me through, you're with a bigger place. Talk me through the decision to then go out on your own and do your own thing. Yeah. Because that is not an easy thing to do. No, especially being a foreigner. Yeah. Why? Like not having any support, no network, you don't know anybody, no friends or family. I knew from the beginning that I wanted something bigger for myself. And I wanted to do it right. So when you're working for other people, there's a lot of policy that makes sense for them, right? So the place that I worked at, I wasn't very... happy with how they ran their practice so of course I wanted to run it better but then you learn too like oh my gosh owning a business is really really hard so I wanted to do it better I wanted to do it more ethically I wanted to do it more comprehensively to where like people feel hurt as a whole not so much of like oh you're anxious and we're just going to treat it anxiety no I want to see a person as a whole and I also want to see a person I want to treat a person as from the root too like I don't want to just to like give you band

14:15 -aids for your symptoms like i want to go to the root of your problems which brings to trauma you know the the work that i've been doing the research that i've been doing the generational trauma so i do a lot of that in my work yeah and the practice didn't really you know focus on that yeah i didn't really like want me to pursue that okay yeah so tell me again the name of your of your place yeah aspire psychological we're in riverton and vegas okay And I've driven by it, especially since you and I first talked. I'm like, oh, that's where Cindy works. That's her place. So tell me about what you guys do specialize in at your practice. So we mainly specialize in trauma. So any kinds of trauma, family trauma, relationship trauma, domestic violence, sexual trauma, and all of that. So I have a team of people who specialize in different kinds of things. For me, myself, I specialize in cultural trauma. and breaking generational trauma and all of that. So a lot of trauma stuff.

15:10 And what are the types of therapy that y 'all offer there? We only offer, we pride ourselves in offering evidence -based treatments. So all or maybe a lot of our treatments are evidence -based. So it has been researched, it has been studied and all of that. So we use those modalities mostly. Talk therapy, individual group, couples, family therapy is what we do. Okay. So when it comes to then this intergenerational trauma, I guess it's totally appropriate. That's what we're talking about today because that's where you have a lot of expertise. So when we think about it, let's take a step kind of back and kind of set the stage for Encanto and why this is such an appropriate topic to discuss when it comes to Encanto. If you wouldn't mind, for anybody who might be listening or watching that doesn't know the story of Encanto, maybe set a 30 ,000 -foot view of overall what's going on in this story. What kind of is happening?

16:10 Yeah, yeah. Okay, so I love Encanto because it's a mix of so many people and a mix of traumas as well. So if you watch Encanto, I think the root of it is that trauma came from survival. you know, they had to hold their family together to survive in the first place. And then it becomes like a rigid family roles. It became like a rigid family roles for everybody, right? Like Luisa. Yeah, because Abuela, when the story first starts, she just has these triplets, right? With her husband. And then they've got to go escape what appears to be these people attacking their town. You can't really tell, but clearly someone's attacking them. They're trying to leave. Her husband tries to stop him. He ends up being killed.

16:55 So now she's really... on her own. Like she's experiencing a lot of trauma in what this is, losing her husband, losing security, losing the safety that she had and then have to take on this whole new experience. Yeah. Triplets by yourself. Like how scary would that be? And so I think you're right. I think through that experience, she ends up becoming pretty rigid in certain things. Right. And I don't think it was. negatively motivated either. No. They needed that for survival, right? They needed Luisa to step up to do something. They needed, you know, Bruno to do something. So it was a lot of like survival skills, like just wanting the family to use their gifts to survive. Yeah. And what's interesting too is I think whether it was even... Trying to have all of her children and grandchildren use their abilities to serve others. Yes. It became so rigid in the application of you have to do this because it is our responsibility and there's no flexibility and it's all on your shoulders and you have to do everything. Right. And you have to do it in this way. Right, right. That she really lost sight of what really makes a family a family, what really makes a community a community. Right, exactly. And it becomes shunned, right? Like hard conversations becomes. becomes like invisible. You can't talk about it. And that's how trauma lives in a family is when we don't talk about it. When they say you cannot talk about Bruno, you know, when you don't talk about something, it persists. It still exists.

18:22 Doesn't mean that it goes away. So that's so interesting to look at that song in that way. I hadn't thought of that before. Yeah. Right. Because they're, they're like. It's still there. Yeah. Like he's actually physically still there, right? Right. But I think it's really what's that represent? What does that represent for us when we do have something that does need to get addressed and we just want to shun it and not talk about it? No, no, no. We can't possibly talk about that. That's too big of a deal. Too much stress, too much trauma associated with that. We're not going to deal with it. We're going to set it aside. We're going to keep it locked away in the walls, so to speak. Right. And not address it or deal with it. Right. And the trauma continues to live, right? People are still miserable. And how I reflected that in my own story is that people don't like to talk about my dad's anger outbursts, you know? Once he's good, we're good. Don't bring it up. Don't talk about it. You know, dad's good. Let's not rock the boat. But the trauma is still there, and it's going to come up again when you get triggered again. But we cannot talk about it.

19:20 So trauma continues to live on. Yeah. It's something that we hadn't talked about before, but I think it fits in here that I would love to hear you kind of teach us more about, which is when it comes to triggers. I think what's interesting for me from a layperson's perspective is that what I've seen is like certainly we all can have triggers, especially with trauma we've experienced. I think this sometimes happens, and this is not all the time, and by no means is trying to discount experiences people have, but sometimes people use a trigger as like a weapon. Oh, an excuse. Oh, no, no, that triggers me. Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, you can't. Nope, that triggers me. I can't do that. That triggers me. And then it really kind of shuts things down. I'm interested, where does that come from, right? Because, and how do we find that balance of something like acknowledging a trigger actually exists and being able to like respect somebody's boundaries, set boundaries? Yeah. but not having it become a weapon. Yes. I think in the pop psychology culture, people use boundaries as like a gate, right?

20:19 Like you can't cross my boundary because this is my boundary. But in a true psychology world, boundaries is connection. We want to have boundaries with you so I can connect with you better. So for example, you have a boundary of, you know, spending time, you know, you clock out at five o 'clock every day, right? Why? So that you can spend more time with your family. You want to be a good dad. You want to be a good spouse. So that's your boundary. So in order for me, so if I work with you, I have something come up at like 6 p .m. I cannot, I don't want to interrupt that because that will disrupt our connection. Because I want what's best for you. And your boundary is that you want to spend five o 'clock onwards with your family. So I'll respect that. But then I will also say like, hey, can we touch base tomorrow instead? So it's not to keep me away from your family time. It's more of like, how can I show up for you and you show up for me in a way that makes sense for us so we can connect outside of the boundary. Does that make sense? It does. And I think the kind of the next step there too, where I think sometimes people, miss out on the next step, which is, okay, if somebody's boundary is not to work after five and there are things that come up, then you've got to have that conversation. Okay. These kinds of things do come up. How can we effectively deal with these things within the time that we have? Do we need to have a different prioritization during the eight to five? So we can make sure that these things appropriately get handled.

21:45 So if it can't happen at six and it's got to happen the next morning. Will it happen? Can it reliably happen by setting out priorities based on the boundaries that you do have? Because then it's a give and take. Exactly. Right. Right. I want what's best for you, too. And you want what's best for me. But we need to work together so we can connect when we can connect. Yeah. Yeah. Because otherwise it just becomes a one way street. It's like, oh, no, sorry. After five, can't do it. Right. Not going to address it. Not going to deal with it. Right. Just sorry. It's you're out of luck. Right. It's not it's not the other way. It's not. OK, what is that person's needs? What is that person's boundaries? How do I how do I. implement or want the best for them and help to make that happen. Right. Right. Boundary is not gate, gatekeeping. It's a lot of connection. Like I want, I want what's best for you and I want to connect with you.

22:27 That makes meaning for you. Yeah. I think that's such a helpful way to look at that as the, the connection. That's what we want is the connection that really helps to inform me about what that means and how I can do that differently. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Okay. So a couple of quotes, I'm going to lay, I'm going to lay at your feet. Okay. So a couple of things that, I went back to when it came to Encanto and some of the things that I heard. And I want to get your take on these things. Before we jump back in, can I ask you a quick favor? If you're enjoying the journey so far, will you like, rate, and subscribe to our show? It helps us reach more people like you. We can design and create and build the most wonderful place in the world, but it takes people to make the dream a reality. So one of the things that Abuela says, and when she's talking to Mirabel, is you have to stop, Mirabel. The cracks started with you. Bruno left because of you. Luisa's losing her powers. Isabel is out of control because of you. I don't know why you weren't given a gift, but it is not an excuse for you to hurt this family. Oh, that is absolutely brutal. Well, I don't know that I fully digested it the very first time that I saw it. But when I've seen it since, that is such a, oh, that's such a hard thing. Yeah. You know, for Abuela to have said to me that. Oh, yeah. But don't you think it's a projection? It totally is. So explain more about that. Tell more about that. Yeah. I think a lot of it is projection of insecurity. Like

23:59 I said, I think Abuela started this whole thing, magical casita thing out of survival. Right. The trauma starts from survival. So when. the survival cracked like you know Luisa lost her magic skills and all of those things it became a threat It suddenly becomes like, oh my gosh, I no longer serve a purpose that I thought was purposeful. Or my family no longer serve a purpose that I thought was purposeful. So that threatened her security, her identity, her purpose. So the way that she dealt with that was projecting it on Mirabelle. Because that was obvious. Mirabelle was the problem. That was obvious in the scene, right? At the time. Sure. She was the problem, right? So a lot of us do that. When we're frustrated with something, we project our anger towards other people. and have other people deal with that instead of us regulating that. Yeah. So that's so interesting because that, I think, and I want to hear your take on this, I think this plays into the next thing that I was going to ask you about, which is then you've got Mirabel talking to Isabella. Mm -hmm. And she's telling Isabella that she's selfish. Right. Right. Because from Mirabelle's perspective, like, oh, OK, like I'm in all these things happen to me and she's rude to me. And so obviously she's got everything perfect. So she is so selfish. She's all about her. Yeah. And Isabella's response was selfish.

25:19 I've been stuck being perfect my whole entire life. And literally the only thing you have ever done for me is mess things up. I never wanted to marry him. I was doing it for the family. Mm hmm. And so. Was Mirabel projecting onto Isabella? For sure, right? I think in a lot of ways, also her own insecurity. Yes. Because she didn't really have much, no magic in that sense. Yes. And so she projected her own insecurity to Isabella, but not knowing Isabella's part of the story too. Because she's struggling too. Totally. She's trying to be perfect to save the family, to please the family. Yeah, she's going to marry this guy because that's what she's supposed to do. Right, exactly. Not because she wants to. How many of us do that? Yeah, we take action because we think that's what our family wants. That's what our parents want. We're trying to please them. Which is, I think, back to that, like, I guess tie that in. Tie that in how that's manifesting intergenerational trauma for her to have done that and acted in the way that she did. Yeah, it's survival again, right? So Isabella thinks that she needs to be perfect to survive because imagine if she's not perfect. What's that going to look like? And I think we did see that in the movie, too, where she didn't want to marry the guy, I think, right?

26:34 Totally. And people didn't like her because of that. So to save herself, to keep her in that position of admiration from the family and all of that, she needs to play that role. Same with Louisa and Bruno. Even Bruno. Bruno's the hard one. Where if she told the truth, sorry, if he told the truth, he would be shunned. Because he did that, nobody wants to do that. So that disruption, I think, taught everybody to just stay quiet and just do whatever you do to survive. Yeah, because Bruno said when they were asking him, when Mirabelle was asking about it afterwards, my gift wasn't helping the family. Right. But I love my family, you know? Yeah. Like, that's going to make me emotional. Yeah. He thinks the things that he's doing aren't helping. Right.

27:19 And he loves them. Right. And so what's his option? Just leave. I'm going to leave. I'm going to leave. I don't want to hurt him anymore. Exactly. Because we haven't dealt with that trauma that's there. Exactly. We haven't dealt with how do we get to the bottom of this so we can actually fix it. Right. And so he feels like he has to just leave. Like, oh my gosh, that just gets me to my core. And Bruno, I think, in my perspective, Bruno was also the only one who told the truth. Yeah. That nobody was ready for it. Yeah. So they exiled him. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, then... you know, as we see kind of this story play now, let's hit Louisa as well, right? She clearly has a bit of that same thing, right? And I think that's why her song, Surface Pressure, is so emblematic of this. where she's just taking everything literally on her shoulders and figuratively on her shoulders, right? Because she's the strong one. I mean, how relatable is Louisa, honestly?

28:06 Like, she's the strong one. She's got to carry the weight for everybody in the family. She can't show any cracks. She can't because she has to be strong. She has to do everything that she's asked to do so that the family can stay strong, so the family can keep doing things to serve others. And meanwhile, she is experiencing, like, the insecurity and the weight of it all and the stress of it all. Pressure. Surface pressure, yeah. It's all this pressure that she's being saddled with just because people think she can handle it. Right, right. And without ever asking her. That's why I think it's so interesting when we look at what this story is with the way that Isabella and Luisa and Bruno and others, it's playing out in what Mirabel, even though she did some projection, what she's able to do to help start. breaking that intergenerational trauma right right and that's the way that i'm thinking that this is playing out is that kind of the way that you're seeing it yeah for sure how does that happen how is she able to start doing that when she starts actually sitting down and listening to her like her siblings and her cousins yeah i think that's an interesting question i never thought about it that way i feel like she was put in that position because she didn't have any magical powers i felt like she was forced into needing to address all of these because she didn't have any magical powers but can you imagine if she did i don't think the trauma will be addressed i think that's right right i think that's right you know uh it's like she's she's

29:37 not given a gift at least not in the traditional sense right right so she thinks that she doesn't have something to offer but in the absence of that traditional gift she's able to see something everybody else isn't. Yes. That was such a pivotal moment for the movie because if she was given a gift, this would not have happened. And because she wasn't given the traditional gift, I think that forced everybody to address it because, you know, that's the elephant in the room at the moment. Yeah. And then I think especially with Abuela, she's forced to reconcile that, right? What role did she actually play? and causing this pressure that each one of them was under to be perfect, to not do things wrong, to have to never worry about themselves, only ever worry about somebody else, because it's a born of necessity.

30:28 That's what we have to do. We have to do this. It's their identity. It became such an identity that they couldn't break away with it. But how beautiful is that, that Abuela was able to say, I was wrong. That was her exact word, right? I was wrong. Accountability. And then it came in. in this really beautiful way, right? It's, you know, with it. So the song Dos Orguitas, you're familiar with that song, right? When I think about that song and break it down, especially in relation to exactly what we're talking about, it's this idea of they're kind of like these little caterpillars, right? And in your life, these little caterpillars. What they're having to do and go through this experience is they're having to go in that cocoon and they're having to reemerge, having been healed from and learned from and break free from the actual cocoon or break free figuratively from this trauma that's bound them up. They had to do it. They go in this cocoon. They're having to protect themselves from the world. They're having to protect themselves from all these bad things that were happening around them. But now it's kept it constricted.

31:32 So they're not actually able to fully recognize and realize. what gifts they truly have. Right. Because they're still stuck in this little cocoon. It was so rigid. So rigid. Right. It was kind of like gender roles almost, right? They have their own roles and they have to do it. When they pivot away from it, they get burned. Yes. Like they get shunned. Yes. Again, like Bruno. Yeah. Right. And then when they're actually able to break free from that and actually able to become the butterfly. Right. right? Spread their wings. Now they're actually able to recognize and realize. And then the very end, the song where they're rebuilding the casita, right? And then it's just really this magical moment where they're all kind of lined up in the pathway leading up to the home and Mirabelle's walking up and they give her the little doorknob to put on the home. And they're talking very specifically and Bruno says it too, like, hey, the real gift is you, kid. Yeah. Right? Like, it's not some...

32:32 gift that you're given. No, it's you. It's each one of us. Like we are independently the gift. Yes. So we have certain skills and we can use those skills, but ultimately like we have to be healed from within because we ourselves are the gift, which I think is really, I mean, it's a really great message, right? Such a great message. And also kind of to tap into that, right. It's also like, we don't have to prove something to be loved. Yeah. You know, like that worth, right? That self -worth. I think sometimes when you get into like our jobs, our career, like we get into the mode of like, we need to prove something. We need to make certain amount of money to prove something that we're great or whatever. But like, I think at the end of that movie, it's like the gift is you. Like you don't need to prove anything to be worthy to be in this family. Yeah. That's beautiful. So I had a couple other quotes from you, for you, not in the movie. Other quotes from other people. Do you know Brene Brown? Yes.

33:30 Of course you do. I love Brene Brown. Right? She talks a lot about shame. Yeah. Right? And one of the things she talks about in shame in her TED Talk was, she said, if you put shame in a Petri dish, it needs three ingredients to grow exponentially. Secrecy, silence, and judgment. And that's what these people experience. If you put the same amount of shame in the Petri dish and douse it with empathy, it can't survive. So it's like... To me, it was so much of what they're experiencing, right? Was this shame. Yeah. And then the empathy, I think, in part came from Mirabel. Where she was able to be empathetic to what they're going through. Yeah. And that's a gift. Yes. Right? That's exactly right. Right.

34:12 Because no other family members could empathize for so long. And she was the only one who could break through that. That was beautiful. That's such a great take on that. Her gift was empathy. Yeah. Which is born from love, right? Yeah, right. You can't have empathy without love. Right. And when she was able to have that empathy and show that love to Luisa. Right. To Isabella. To Isabella too, yeah. To Dolores. Right. Right. To Bruno. To Bruno. Yeah. Oh, especially to Bruno. Right. Then suddenly. the secrecy that they all have with what their hardship is because each one of them was yeah bruno actually silent leaves luisa not telling anybody about her cracks isabella just trying to be perfect all the time not saying it right dolores knowing a lot and holding it back she knew bruno was there the whole time because she can hear him like i can't say anything i'm not gonna be the one that says something nope this won't be a secrecy right because he's got shame i've got shame we can't do it yeah So then as Mirabelle comes in with her gift, which I think you're exactly right, is empathy, able to help. break down that petri dish of shame.

35:14 Yeah, and understanding and curiosity, right? I think we don't live our lives with enough curiosity to understand people. I think a lot of time, even in that movie, it's that everyone has their own struggles. We just don't talk about it. But when we come on the lens of curiosity, we know people struggle more and we can connect better when we know that too. And we can show up better. I think Mirabelle just really wanted to show up with the sisters and the cousins. She just didn't know how. Right. And you can see her efforts, too. Yeah. She's trying to, when they're first putting together the party for Antonio to get his gift. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's trying to make the little things with the little candles. And she's trying to do everything she can to participate. Right. She didn't have a gift. Everyone's kind of like, ah, you don't need to do that.

35:59 Like, Abuela's like, hey, step aside. Like, let other people do it. Right. But she's trying to. She's trying to find ways that she can serve. To show up, yeah. And then ultimately finds, you know. I think the best way, which was through empathy. So when we think about, we take a step away specifically from incontinence, we'll still look at the lens. When we think about intergenerational trauma that people have, what do they do with that? First off, how does somebody recognize that they have some of that in their life, in their family? And then what do they do with that information once they recognize that that's something that is harming them or something they are experiencing? Yeah, such a good question. How do we know if we have some kind of an intergenerational trauma?

36:41 A big indication is when you're with your family and you cannot talk about something. There's always something. In my work, what I see a lot is abuse. We cannot talk about the abuse, usually from a family member. We cannot talk about the addiction. When there's addiction in the family, usually you can't talk about that. So I would say if there's something that you feel like you cannot talk about and it triggers that kind of really ugh emotions for you, I would say that's a good indicator that you're going through some kind of a trauma in your family. And so once you recognize it, what do you do about it? Yeah. Because it's not always easy, right? No, yeah.

37:22 If there are certain things that are very taboo to talk about, you can recognize it's there, but then how in the world do you approach it? I think the first question you need to ask yourself is what do you want to do with this? Kind of circling back to my own story, right? You don't know you grew up in the... you know in the abusive childhood until you get out of it and you're like like that's not normal right that's not normal like oh your dad don't yell at you all the time like that's weird so you so i would say you live in it for so long you don't know until you know something different and you're like oh that's not normal so when you get the aha moment i want you to ask yourself like what do you want to do with this so for me when i realized that i had quite an abusive childhood and not like canny or like not physical. It was a lot of emotion, emotional abuse. Um, I asked myself like, what do I want to do with this?

38:15 At first I wanted kind of like a revenge, right? Like kind of like, I want my dad to feel it. You know, I want my dad to feel like how it was, like how painful it was and stuff like that. So I spent a lot of time being angry, being angry with him at him and like, you know, like journaling a lot of just angry stuff and kind of want to, you know, yell at him and stuff like that. Um, So I spent a lot of time being angry, but then I realized that anger is not bringing me anywhere. I think a lot of people get stuck just in that phase, the anger part, where you blame, you shame, you blame, and it's everyone else's problem. But as an adult, you have to realize your life is what you make out of it. If you want to continue to be angry at your dad, you can. But do I want to live that life and be miserable? I actually love my dad. I want to have a connection with him. So what I did was I went to therapy. I had to be really, really honest with myself. Like, you know, I didn't have a part in it, right?

39:10 But I can make a change now as an adult. So as an adult, what can I do? I'm a mother now. Obviously, I have some tendencies from my dad. Sure. That absolutely happens, right? Right. Like, you know, like in your head, I don't want to be my dad. But then, you know, you are your dad sometimes when you're triggered and all of that. So I have to check myself so much to like, OK, not repeat this and not, you know, change the pattern. I'm learning some things because in my culture, there's a lot of shaming you. If somebody if the kid doesn't want to do what you said, you shame them. Like, you're going to be stupid. You're going to be homeless and stuff like that. You shame them until they do something that you want to do. But that's not usually the best thing to do with your kids. Yeah, shaming is not an effective tool for, like, lasting impact. Right. You might get them to take that action in that moment.

40:00 Right. But long term, no. For you, Brene Brown talks a little bit about this. What's the difference between shame and guilt? I think she talks about it like shame is generally bad. Guilt's not necessarily bad. What's the difference? I think shame is very internally judging. You're judging yourself internally. You feel like you're in trouble a lot. Guilt can fuel action. So if you feel guilty, you feel like, oh, you want to do something different. So I would say shame is more internal. Guilt is more maybe action -based for some people. Okay. I like that. I like that difference there. Yeah. Okay. So somebody is experiencing this. They recognize it. They've got to decide what they want to do with it. You said that sometimes, like for you, you felt anger. Yeah. Is that?

40:47 Is that an essential step that somebody needs to go through that emotion of feeling the anger and not shying away from feeling anger about it? Or what component does that play in this process of trying to heal from this intergenerational trauma? Yeah, I think when it comes to healing trauma or like trauma from the past, especially. There's two, I feel like there's two kinds of people. One who would say like, oh, everything's fine. I was fine. You know, it wasn't such a big deal or like I got through it. It was fine. But there are a lot of time, a lot of time when that happens is that they are not wanting to address the feelings, not wanting to even go there because they know if they go there, the feelings are overflowing, right? It's hard to, it's hard to engage or like regulate. So there's that one. And then the other ones are like feeling a lot, right? Anger and just being. stuck there it's like just being stuck in that negative loop of like oh it's it's his fault it's whatever it's other people's fault and I'm not going to acknowledge that so so there's two types of people so I think in a way I think it's really good to kind of process like what you want to get out of that so yes feeling the feelings it very important but we need to get out of that feelings too yeah and more action -based and what do we want to get out of that feelings So when someone's experiencing those emotions of anger for past trauma and they decide what they want to do with it, how do they decide? How do they come up with what that is they want to do? If they're unsure,

42:20 if they're lost about what that means or... what the options even are. How do they go about figuring out what it is they want to do with that? Yeah, good question. I think for me, it was just more of like, do I want to live a life where I'm just really angry with my dad all my life? You're talking 80 years, maybe potentially 80 years of like hating somebody. Not really. Like, I don't want to have that kind of a negative feeling in me, right? Because ultimately, I'm the one suffering. My dad's fine. He's gone through it. He's fine. He's healed, right? the one who's like carrying all of that so i would say check in with that and the next move will just be you know once you decided what you want out of it the next one will be seeking resources and help asking for support like maybe going up um sorry connecting with people who went through similarly siblings are usually good but even with siblings everyone usually have very different experiences childhood experiences too um therapy is always good you know having that third person that don't know you and don't know the dynamics and not really engage in, you know, all of this trauma, have them help you kind of sort it out for you.

43:31 Um, and making sure that that's a good fit too, because a lot of people do not understand cultural drama, uh, trauma. Sorry. Sure. Yeah. So we need to make sure that the people that we seek out, seek help for from is also in line to our values. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great, that's a great point. You know, if somebody can't at all understand. what that experience was. They can't relate to it at all. It's going to make it a little bit harder for them to give you good advice about what to do. I mean, just as something as simple as culture, right? Like I come from Asian culture and you come from Western culture. When we talk about boundaries, when we talk about families. it's so different right like i think in the western culture it's very socially acceptable to cut people off cut your family off but in asian culture oh my gosh like we have a lot of intermingling things and culturally it's just not something that we do so if you go to a therapist who who you know who's okay with cutting people off there will be a lot of this alignment there with values too so seeking appropriate help with a good fit is important yeah definitely true So then somebody goes and kind of seeks that help and they're able to start breaking down this trauma and breaking out of the patterns that they might be stuck in because of this trauma. What does that look like in that process of trying to get rid of those patterns? Yeah. Oh my gosh, so hard. You will see a lot of people who rather, and I'm

45:04 not saying this lightly, who rather stay in a trauma because it's easier. Yeah. Easier to deal because you know what to expect. You know how to deal with it when you're triggered. You know what happens next. You know your own narrative, right? But when you are trying to break out of it, it's going to be so uncomfortable because you need to sit with feelings that are very uncomfortable. Like, I need to take accountability on my life. A lot of trauma victims don't feel like they need to take accountability because it's not their fault. And it is not their fault. But the accountability comes from living the life that you want to live. That's the accountability that you need to take. And that's where the decision has to be made. What do you want to do with this trauma? How do you want to heal from it? So I would say a lot of sitting with the discomfort of changing patterns. So for example, for me, when my daughter, I have a seven -year -old daughter.

45:54 Seven -year -old, of course. She's like, you know, she wants everything. She's just a mess. Like, she just wants to do everything. When she talks back at me in my culture, in the past, my dad would be like, you don't talk to me like that. You know, just shut it down right away and yell it back to her. To break that intergenerational trauma, I need to catch myself to not react to that the same way that I was reacted to because that doesn't make her feel safe, right? So I need to be more mindful of listening to respond instead of listening to react. That's accountability. That's breaking your own generational trauma. It stops with you. Well, I mean, that leads perfectly to, I guess, a little bit further down that path, the same basic thing, which is once someone's able to break the patterns they have, how do you help make sure you don't pass those on? How do you make sure that now you don't continue that intergenerational trauma and your kids continue to experience those same things that you had experienced? Because I think for a lot of people, that's hard. Even though we know certain things that we didn't like that our parents did. Right?

47:02 We could even name them. Yeah. And probably many of them. Right. And yet in the moment, in the heat of the moment especially, we revert to what we know because it's the only thing that we know. Right. Exactly. Like, okay, I experienced that before. I saw that. I'm going to do that. Right. How do you go about, like, really breaking that pattern? Yeah. I always ask, I always tell my, this is what I do. I always tell myself, like, is this worth spiraling for? so is this worth the battle picking like for example she didn't she wants to have chick -fil -a for dinner you know but i have already cooked dinner so then How do we manage that? Do we hear her what she wants? Or do we cave in too? Sometimes that can be seen as spoiling as well, right? Or do we set that boundary and be firm with that? And what did your family do that made you feel unsafe at the time? And what can you do to make your kids feel safe? So I would say taking that pause.

48:01 Taking that pause before you respond. Taking that pause before you react. Even a one second or two. second breathe in and breathe out that could change so much of the trajectory of how you handle the situation because a lot of the time we know what we don't want to be sure but in the moment in the heat of moment we kind of cave into what we know yeah but when we take that step just that one or two seconds to breathe just one or two second i'm not taking not saying take five minutes just one or two second i think a lot of things can change that's how you break international intergenerational trauma is you change that pattern you stop that pattern how do you How do you resolve the inherent conflict there between spoiling a kid and holding really firm boundaries? Yeah, that will have to come from your family value. Like, what do you value?

48:53 I think that example. Right. I think for me, what was happening there is that I had to tell her, like, hey, we're so privileged to be able to have a choice to go out or to eat in. So I had to tell her, like, I've already cooked the food and this is something that we have to eat tonight. But tomorrow we can do Chick -fil -A. So having her be heard as well and be safe and not react and be like, how dare you? suggest chick -fil -a there's dinner on the table you know just kind of how you respond really totally yeah so okay so so let me take a different slant at this uh same idea which is how do you help to break the patterns when you're dealing with a co -parenting situation as you know i'm a divorce attorney so i'm dealing with these things all day i also happen to have two boys with an ex yeah And so I think in co -parenting situations, a lot of things are more complicated. 100%. I'm also co -parenting, so I get you. Okay, so you get it. Yeah. You get it. So what was your question?

49:56 How do you break those patterns? How do you help your kids not experience that same intergenerational trauma when you do have a co -parenting situation? So you can't. Always be there for those situations because they're only with you half the time or whatever it is. Right. Oh, this is so hard. And I tell this to myself, too. You control what you can control. You cannot control when your kids are away from you, but you can control when they're with you. So how do you want them to feel when they're with you? Do you want them to feel safe? What does safety look like for your kids? Maybe just listening to them more or being present with them, not scrolling on our phone. Or being that safe place to where they can tell us uncomfortable things without reaction. And that itself, just that, just three things, is already breaking a lot of generational trauma from a lot of families because we don't do that enough. So we control what we can control, and kids will know. I mean, you know, right?

50:52 Kids know. And they'll find out. I think that's really insightful where... you know how do we want our kids to feel in our home and we want them to feel safe yeah and when we look at it through that lens i mean i'm already thinking right now about different decisions i would have made yesterday with my five -year -old right i'm already literally thinking about these things when we were trying to watch beauty and the beast last night okay we were experiencing the same thing and she's five But I can totally see this, like, I want her to feel safe. I do. And so some of the things that she and I were having this back and forth on at 5 and 43, like, oh, okay, I want her to feel safe, though. I could have made a different decision in the way that I held to this boundary or asked her to do that or she's getting upset and I need her to do something different. If my goal is, like, I actually want her to feel safe and loved, okay, I need to take a second or two. I need to think about this differently.

51:44 And I can still have. a boundary that I set with her, but boy, it would have played out different. I would have totally done it different if I would have looked at that lens. I love that so much. Yeah, you're welcome. And I use that for myself so much. Even just yesterday, you know, she had a tantrum, of course, seven -year -old. She threw a fit because she wanted to draw another thing because we were drawing and she wanted to draw another thing and it's bedtime. So she threw a fit and then she went to her room. Her room is more like a safe place where I have combing posters and stuff like that, coping skills that she can use. So after like 10 minutes, she was in there. She came out and said, Mommy, I want to talk. I'm like, oh, that's cool that you said that. And then she's like, well, you don't love me. She said, well, Mommy, you don't love me.

52:29 I'm like, that's... i love you maya in what ways have i shown that i don't love you today and then she's like well you didn't come and talk to me oh is that what you needed i can do that you know so just taking that even that pause and just really listening to what she needed she really just needed a hug after that yeah and i can give it to her i don't need to and you asked her Yeah, and I ask her, too. You asked her, what would you need to feel loved? Yeah. And I think a lot of times we don't. We're like, well, of course I love you. Right. Like, I do everything for you. I literally, everything you have in this house, everywhere you go, I buy it for you. Right. Like, of course I love you. Yes. Instead of just saying, oh. What do you need to feel loved? Yes. Yeah. So it's so important to like even just having that respect for your child that they have feelings, too, and they have needs, too. And we show up in ways that make sense for us in how we show love. But maybe it doesn't make sense for them. For sure. Yeah.

53:20 Interesting. OK, I love it. OK, so I'm going to take us to a couple of quick segments and then we'll kind of do our final thoughts and then our three actionable takeaways. So before we do, we're going to do a this or that. Okay. I'll just give you a this or that and you say which one you think. Awesome. And you might have to defend your controversial opinion. All right. Let's do it. And then after that, it'll be a rapid fire. So the rapid fire is I'll just ask you a question and whatever first thing comes to your mind. Okay. Okay. So here's the this or that. This is the first one. Mirabelle or Isabella? Mirabelle. Bruno or Luisa? Ooh. This one was a little harder. Ooh. Um. Ooh, then I have to defend it, right? Luisa. I really love Luisa. Yeah. She might be my favorite. She's so great. I just think it's so relatable. So relatable. What she goes through. Yeah, in a lot of ways. And she didn't run away. I think that was why I would defend her is because she didn't run away from the cracks. Yeah, from her side. The Magic Candle or The Casita? Oh, The Casita. Yeah, I think it's got way more character.

54:33 Yes, super fun. Let's see. Let's go with Family Dinner or Solo Night Out? Oh, Family Dinner, 100%. I love my Family Dinner. That's why we talk. So good. Talk It Out or Ride It Out? Oh, I'm a talking it out person. Same. Yeah. Some people love to write and that's their way to kind of get it out. Oh, I just want to talk. I just want to talk. Yeah. Totally. Until your ear's out. Okay. Call your therapist or call your best friend? Therapist. I feel like my best friend will tell me what I want to hear. See, my best friend's different. He will tell me.

55:14 He'll be way too hard on me. He'd be like, you're an idiot. Stop doing that, you moron. Right, right, right. He'd just give it to me straight. I think that's a good best friend to keep. He works for the sheriff's office, so he's used to not messing around. He's just going to give it to you like it is, which is actually really good for me to hear sometimes. But sometimes it is nice to have someone who's going to talk through it and think through it a little bit more thoroughly with you. Yes, I just feel like with therapists, they have a different perspective to where they're not biased, to where they can help me through it. I just feel like best friends know me through and through, and know my BS too. And they will tell me my BS. For sure. Okay, here's our rapid fire. Favorite Disney movie? Encanto. So good. Same. Favorite Disney song?

55:57 Oh, Reflection. From Mulan. Oh, such a powerful song. Such a powerful song. We just did Mulan on an episode a couple of weeks ago. And that song came up. And it's really... It's really moving, you know, when she's just talking about the, like, when she's looking at that reflection, you know, is it who she wants to be? What does she need to become? Going back to that people pleasing, right? Yeah. Who are you? Yeah, because initially, like, all she's wanting to do is please everybody else around her. I've got to go be this perfect little wife and go be this bride and, like, do these things that they asked. And she has to learn to break free from that. It's so good. I love that. So relatable. Favorite Disney princess? Wow. Oh, my gosh. Elsa's sister.

56:47 Oh, Anna. Anna. She's so great. It's not Elsa. Anna's so great. Anna's so great. I feel like Anna is such a connector, and she's so funny. She is. Yeah, she's so funny. She's got some similarities to Mirabel. Yeah, she does. Because neither of them has powers. Yeah, right. And yet they're still able to do great things even without powers. Right. And a lot of it's based in love, right? And empathy. Empathy, yes. Right? With Elsa. Like, she just wanted to, like, understand her. Like, why do we not want to build a snowman? So good. So good. Okay, favorite Disney hero or heroine? Oh, I'm not really a hero person. I would still say Anna. I think she saved Arendelle.

57:27 She's a heroine. 100 % she is. Yeah, absolutely. Especially in Frozen 2. Yes. Yeah, what she was able to do to take the information that she had and make the super, super hard choice. Like, we're going to destroy this dam. It's going to flood all of Arendelle. Right. But it has to right the wrong. I've got to do it. Right. And she did it. She does it. She has the power to do it. Right. So good. I love her. So good. Favorite Disney villain? I would say Bruno. At first it was like a villain, right? Because you think he's the villain. Right. You think he is, and then it turns out that he's not at all. It's not, yeah. Which is, that's a good one, because then he's actually this great character, this lovable character who's only out there trying to love his family and help his family. Right. So totally redeemable. I love Bruno. Love it.

58:10 Okay, here's a couple others. Which family member of the family Madrigal would you most want to have dinner with? I would say Abuela. Okay. Yeah. Tell me more. I want to know her story. I want to know how she survived single parenting with three triplets. I'm like drowning, but she had three. And what kind of pain did she need to survive to get to that point of the magical kingdom, right? And sustain that and what kind of stress she had. I just really want to talk to her. That's actually a really great one. I wasn't even thinking that one. That's awesome. If you could have any gift that any of the family members of the family Madrigal have, which would you choose? That's a hard question. The same Mirabelle health? Would that count? Sure, because we just talked about the fact that she's got the gift of empathy and love. I say that because I feel like I could relate. I am the first one and the only one in my family. that wants to break the trauma the generation of trauma and i could relate it so much because she was going through to so many people like help me understand like help me help me and nobody really wanted to right so it felt like i could yeah i could relate to her a lot okay so it was very personal to me i love that that's a great answer that's a great answer all right so let's kind of come to our kind of final um kind of conclusion thoughts or kind of takeaways

59:43 that we have from here so What's kind of the overall closing reflection that somebody could have on this idea of intergenerational trauma within Kanto? And then let's get our three actionable takeaways. Yeah. So I wrote this down because I really want to distill this one thing. Yes. Breaking generational trauma isn't about rejecting your family. It's about loving them enough to change the story. Say it again. Yeah. Breaking generational trauma isn't about rejecting your family. It's about loving them enough to change the story. Kind of like boundaries. I want to have boundaries so I can connect with you. I want to love you enough so it's meaningful for you. So that we can actually have a family. Kind of like my family now, right? We're so close.

1:00:33 I go home once every year, at least once every year, and I'll fly my parents here once every year too for my daughter's birthday. And why is that so important to break that? Trauma is that without that, without those work, we won't have this relationship. So I wanted to go through that rough patch, that really, really hard time, hard two years of just really processing with them and really talking with them and really like taking accountability for my own life so that I can have a relationship with my family. Yeah, I think it's so good. And especially in light of your explanation about what a boundary really means. It's not to keep somebody out. It's actually to. create the connection, which is so good. Okay. So what are three actionable takeaways that somebody could put into effect in their lives today or this week to start breaking this intergenerational trauma and really moving forward to a happier life? Yeah. First thing, name it. You have to name it. If you don't name it, you don't know. And I think a lot of people live a life where we don't really want to know or we don't want to address it. So naming it is so important. So what is it? What are you struggling with on a day -to -day? Why are you struggling? Why are you struggling with anxiety?

1:01:51 What is the root of it? So naming the root of it is important. So that's step one. Step two would be... getting like what do you want out of this right so for myself like the childhood abuse i don't want to pass this on so in order not to pass this on i need to do something so i took parenting classes i took parenting courses i even went to one of my friend's house so she she's the same age as me but she has um she had kids earlier than me so she was the mom first and whatever so i had to go to her house and watch her play with her kids. Like I never had my parents play with me. So I don't know what playing with kids mean. I hated kids before I had kids. So it's like you need to learn from the ground up. You need to, you know, the nitty gritty. You cannot lie to yourself anymore. You need to be really honest with yourself. So whatever that is, take accountability and do that. What direction you want to do with the trauma, right?

1:02:49 And then the third one is taking accountability. What can we do to take accountability for this trauma? What can we do to break this so that we don't pass it on? This is something that we can control, so we want to control that. That's fantastic. I think if somebody can put those into effect, they're going to see a major shift. Yes. And I think their overall happiness, frankly, I think it's actually that important. Right. I think I always say life is too short to live in your own BS. Yeah. We have a lot of excuses. We have so many of our own BS that we tell ourselves, you know. Of course. But the BS is what's keeping us from feeling true to ourselves, being honest with ourselves, you know, living a true life, like a very authentic life. I wear fur coat to the gym. Do I care? No. Because you like it.

1:03:42 Because I love it. And if you do, that's what you should do. Right. Absolutely. Who cares about what other people think, right? Because I love it. I think I look good in it and I feel good in it. So that's all that matters is that what you feel about it and take accountability for that as long as you're not hurting other people. Sure. I think it's funny you mention that. A lot of times I'll get from people because I wear suits a lot. Yeah. Like, oh, don't you just hate having to wear a suit every day because you're an attorney? And I was like, actually, no. I actually really like wearing suits, truth be told. Right, right. I wear suits when I don't have cord. I wear suits because I like wearing suits. Yeah. It makes me feel fancy. It makes me feel professional. And I like the way it makes me feel. Yes. And so I like wearing suits because of that. And that's authentic to you. That's why it makes you feel good because it aligns with your value. Right. So I think that's so important. Aligning your life with your values.

1:04:34 Yeah, no question. Well, I appreciate the conversation with you so much today. Thank you. Learned a ton about. intergenerational drama, trauma about boundaries, about creating connection from the boundaries as opposed to barriers. Really, really lovely conversation. I appreciate it. Thank you, Ryan. Thank you for having me. It was such a great movie to unpack. Yeah, for sure. My pleasure. Thanks. Thank you. As you lead this conversation, remember that yes, the past can hurt and you can either run from it or you can learn from it. So here's to learning. and finding joy in the journey. See you real soon.