Encanto and Breaking Free From Perfectionism | Angie White on Self-Worth

0:00 What did being a perfectionist look like for you? It looked like not disappointing people, living up to a role that I was told was my role and what I accepted fully as my role. Understanding your value as a person, that it was inherent, right? Much like Mirabelle had to learn, like the gift is me. You don't have to have some other special gift. The gift is like who I am. I kind of went past the... where you're supposed to go past the reef and it was hard and it was yeah no one goes beyond the reef right that's what her dad says right like no can't do it she's like no i got it when i self -abandon i feel anxious and angry but it's because i'm not being myself i'm not being true to myself this time i'm thinking i have something to offer and i can help having people be angry with me isn't as devastating as it used to be welcome to yes and land where we say yes to the reality of yesterday and today, and we say and to the possibility, growth, and imagination of tomorrow. Well, welcome, everybody, to our next episode of Yes and Land.

1:17 Very excited about our guest today, Angie White, with Jawies and COO over there. That's your role, correct? That's right. pretty awesome and she's also very humble um and doesn't want to take any praise for it but you don't get to be a role like that somewhere without having exceptional skills and i want to talk with her today about her journey to get there and what it what it looked like to overcome some trials and overcome some things in her life working through things like failures or self -doubt um and people that helped you along the way because we never do things alone right And we're going to talk about a few different movies today. It's going to be a good time. We're going to talk about Mulan, which is one of my faves. Absolutely love Mulan.

2:01 Whenever we talk about like favorite Disney heroes, she is pretty high on my list. She's pretty amazing. It's very rewatchable, that movie, for me as well. Watched it with my kids not too long ago and just loved it. We're also going to talk about Encanto, which actually is my favorite Disney movie. I know it's recency bias, Angie. It totally is, but I love it. I think it's mine too. It's so good. Yeah. And who knows? We might go some other paths, too. We might talk about some other characters. We might even talk about Moana. Who knows? We're going to see where it takes us. I'm a big Disney fan. Good. This will be great, then, because so am I. We'll enjoy our Disney nerddom as we talk today. One thing I wanted to ask you about, we talked a little in the pre -show about, but like, tell me about this house in Florida you have and what view you have. Okay.

2:47 We feel really lucky and we didn't buy it for this, but it's on a lake. And at night you can see the Magic Kingdom fireworks from the back patio. Unbelievable. Yeah. That is so cool. I saw some memes. So we're recording this just after July 4th. And I saw some memes leading up to July 4th that just made me laugh where it was like. July 4th is when, you know, you go enjoy all your local fireworks, but you think, nah, it's not Disney. And I'm always like, I do love fireworks. But there's something about watching a Disney fireworks show, especially if you can hear the music. And we can't, but we can see them. But it reminds you of, you know, probably what that is. You know, when you're actually in the park, seeing it, watching the projections they do on the castle, that whole production. Magical, of course. It is, yep. Okay, so I want to kind of roll it back and talk a little bit about young Angie. And one of the things that you've mentioned as we've talked in the past is maybe you were a little bit of a perfectionist. Yes. So tell me what that looked like when you were growing up. What did being a perfectionist look like for you? It looked like not disappointing people and kind of living up to a role. that I was told was my role and what I accepted fully as my role. And I think because I get embarrassed easily and I don't like to, I get my face goes red. And so I really

4:22 was trying to avoid embarrassment, but also I'm a high achiever. I want to achieve things, set goals. And so my perfectionism was more, i i set good goals like high achieving goals yeah um i've i've run marathons and i kind of use this as an example i don't win marathon win marathons but i run them sure and the reason i did that is because you can follow a schedule i'm disciplined you can follow a schedule and do the training and if you do that you'll run a marathon and i'm a firm believer in that yeah you do the training i would never show up and not prepare and so That's something I'm not afraid of hard work.

5:07 I'm not afraid of discipline and setting my mind to something, which could be a good goal. Yeah. And then achieving that goal. But I would never say I should win a marathon. Sure. You know, because that's a little too high. Does that make sense? It does. And it leads to my next question, which is when you have perfectionism, I do think it's one of those traits that is a blessing and a curse at times. In what ways do you feel like, especially in your younger years, did any of that perfectionism hold you back from something? And that's exactly where I was held back because I wouldn't set goals that I could fail at. So I wanted to be a nurse at one point, and I started college. and started the prerequisites to become a nurse. And it was a really competitive field to get in to the program where I was attending school. And instead of saying, well, I'm going to do this, and there's a chance I could fail, I just changed my mind to what I was going to do. I decided not to do it and pursue that. Because what if they don't accept me to the program?

6:18 Then I failed. And that's where my perfectionism held me back. I didn't choose goals that I could fail at. What was it about failure that held you back? What was it you worried about with that? I think it would say something about my worth, ultimately. That it would say that I'm not good or... Because I had a lot of self -doubt. Sure. and um and i was very i'm i'm a competitive person strangely enough but i i just i i think it was just all about my worth it would say well you're not smart enough you're not good enough yeah you know in in in reviewing some things kind of preparing for this episode i went back and looked at some scenes in kanto and there's a few that apply here but we'll kind of take some of them one by one. I want to get your kind of take on some of these. And there's one that's right at the beginning, right? You have the song, The Family Madrigal, which is just such a fun song, right? Part of it's like the genius of Lin -Manuel Miranda, that he needs to introduce all these characters, but he does so in classic Lin style of the way that he does the song. And you just feel like it's just an amazing song.

7:31 And yet, really, what they're doing is just setting the stage for who everybody is, so you understand, because it's a big old family. There's a lot of characters to navigate in the show. It's so brilliant. So at the end of this song, right, they're getting to the point where all these kids want to know what her gift is, right? And somebody's coming to bring some stuff. A townsperson's coming to bring some stuff for this big party they're going to have. And it kind of is revealed that she doesn't have a gift. And this is kind of the exchange, right? One of the kids says, you didn't get a gift? And there's a couple of other exchanges back and forth. And then another kid says, if I was you, I'd be really sad. And she says, well, my little friend, I am not because the truth is gift or no gift. I am just as special as the rest of my family. And then the kid says, maybe your gift is being in denial. Like, oh, it's brutal, right? Like right from the get go, it's brutal. And really, she's just masking at this stage. I mean, you can really see that in reality, she didn't like fully embrace that and believe that. And so, like, what's kind of your take here on this journey that Mirabel is experiencing with feeling less than or feeling like, you know, she's kind of the one on the outside because she can't do what other people in her family can't do? Yeah, I relate to that. I have, you know, at that in a young age, you're kind of comparing yourself to this small circle you have.

8:48 So your siblings, your friends, and I have really impressive siblings. My dad would say certain things about each sibling. And I had something he said about me. But it wasn't something I wanted to be the smart one. I wanted him to say, oh, you're so smart. I wanted him to focus on other things, not what he focused on. And my dad's a great dad. This is something I realized as I got older. And then even my friends there, you know, you think about all your friends and the things that they're incredible at. Maybe they're in the gifted and talented program. Again, it all comes down to wanting to be smart, I think, for me. And I think I am. But I was kind of I I that's a quality I really admire in people is just, you know, you know, someone who's really good in school or whatever. Um, so I think, I think that that's, that's what I could relate to with her is just looking around, seeing all these impressive people and thinking, oh, that's not me. Maybe focusing more on what I'm not than what I am. Cause that's what she did. Right.

10:02 Because in one of the songs that comes after that, um, you know, she sings a song that she's waiting on a miracle. Right. She's like talking about all these things that her family does are so amazing. She's like. just over here waiting like where's where's my gift where's my miracle like why is it just me and she hasn't at that point in time in the show understood at all what her true worth is right and so it's it's holding her back and her ability to step into that power because she has it it's there right and it's later revealed in the show that she of course does um but then it's also just creating a lot a lot more you know friction with her and her siblings too right like with isabella like creates lots of friction there um so you know when we look at you know this idea that failures can the idea of a failure can really hold us back it's kind of this fear of a failure and fear of maybe not good being good enough um one of the things that um i was i was looking at with this as well as a quote from brene brown right she's amazing yeah and you know and It's a little bit more in the line of rather than who we are, also taking a look at what our actions are and what actions we take. One of the things that she said, this is a really famous thing that she said from Daring Greatly. She said, guilt means I did something bad. Shame means I am bad.

11:24 and how many times do we unfortunately fall into that idea of shame right like i am bad as opposed to like i did something bad right i feel guilty for that i should right i did something that's wrong but it's not who i am right and so when you're experiencing during kind of your grown -up years and this idea of kind of holding yourself back a little bit for the fear of failures did you ever battle with that a little bit of like trying to avoid shame, not feeling like you were a bad person, not feeling like you were less than. Was that anything you ever had to kind of combat or battle? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was a very obedient child. I followed every rule. I would have guessed. That's what I was guessing. Yeah. And I even tell people as an adult, I am such a rule follower. Someone was trying to get me to break a rule. I'm like, are you trying to get me to do this? And I send the sweating face emoji and she's like, well, you know, it was just really funny. And, and I like, even to this day, I'm just such a rule follower. I'm not going to break a rule because I, I do, I, I, I would think I am bad. Yeah. Yeah. And, and.

12:28 How do you navigate the difference there, though, between like doing the right things and following the rules is good, right? It's not bad to do that. That's actually a good thing. But doing it because it's who you are as opposed to the avoidance of shame for doing it. Yeah. And I think, too, there's an element of conformity. And I really I tell people that are rule breakers. I'm like. i am impressed i am impressed with safe rule breakers right and and so there's this part of me especially as a child and growing most of my adult life too i have been i've conformed i've followed the rules i've tried to live up to everyone's expectations of me and my evolution and when i was doing that there's a level of safety For sure. But there's also some self -abandonment that I didn't realize until after I started not conforming as much and not making it where I had to please everybody. And having people be angry with me isn't as devastating as it used to be if I'm confident in my decision. Yeah.

13:41 Right? Like, I don't want to rile anyone up, but I also want to stand up for myself or what I think should be stood up for. Yeah. And that doesn't make people happy, especially when you've always been a conformer. Absolutely. And so that was probably a hard thing. What was your inflection point for that? What was the experience you had, if you could point to one, where that really started to turn for you? could worry a little bit less about what somebody else thought and just do more of what you thought was the right thing and what you wanted to in that situation yeah it was very gradual but then when you look back you can kind of see signs pointing to it and um i i i would feel very angry i would feel trapped and i but i also wanted to be a sweet person or good a good girl or you know, there's all these things that I It is it was such a conflict of I think I'm a wild like I I am always trying to capture and bring back this I always think of eight -year -old me and She had frizzy red hair Maybe I was five or six, actually. I was younger, probably. And frizzy red hair and running around the neighborhood, bossing everyone around, telling everyone what we're doing. And people were following me. And I had a strawberry shortcake swimsuit. Like, this is who I conjure up in my mind when I'm trying to be brave. Sure. Because

15:14 I pushed that little girl down. When I started to feel embarrassment and shame and needing to follow rules and conform, I abandoned. I think we hear about that a lot. I don't think that's unusual. And so I carried that into my teenage years, well into adulthood, where I have this wildness in me. But when I ignore it, I call it self -abandonment now. And when I self -abandon, I feel anxious and angry. But it's because I'm not being myself. I'm not being true to myself.

16:01 And I've had to learn that that doesn't mean stepping on people or being mean or, you know. Sure. There's a way to be yourself and also be respectful of others. Totally. So. You know. it's so interesting i i love where you're going with this i just think there's a lot that that people can relate to with that and the idea of like it's self -abandonment when when you don't when you're just doing it to conform you know when we look at um well there's some other things too so one of the things i want to ask you about too is this idea of failure um and at some point in time in your life you had to i'm sure make the decision that like i'm going to still take a risk, even though I might fail on this. Yeah.

16:47 Right. And tell me how you grappled with that. How did you come to the decision or conclusion in your life that you were willing to fail in things and not worry about what everybody else was saying or thinking and not feel shame for it, for failing on it? What did that look like? It was all so gradual. And I was offered an opportunity to start a business. And it it was, I felt really honored to be asked, but this person felt like I had the right skills to start this with her. And, um, we just took it a step at a time and we were putting a little money in here and there. And my husband would say, okay, it's, you know, you still in this? I'm like, yeah, I'm not ready to give up. And, and then we started having successes and it wasn't success after success. There were a lot of failures, but from this person, I learned you don't A failure doesn't mean you give up.

17:43 And I brought up another movie, Meet the Robinsons. Yes. And I love that you keep moving forward. And maybe you find another, maybe this is your goal and you were trying to get on path A, but let's try path B or C. And then maybe you work your way through the whole alphabet. But if you know that's where you want to go, you keep trying. And for this business, it actually did really well. I gradually started seeing things in me that this business partner saw in me, you know, that I had certain skills. And again, it was just a gradual realization. I would never say I have an ego to where I'm like, oh, I've got this, you know. But I started to see, oh, I do have some skills. I do have some abilities here that I didn't know I had. And then I just started thinking. well, what else is there that I didn't know about me? Because I was always conforming.

18:44 And the life as I was conforming is a life I love, too. It doesn't mean it's a bad life. It's just I was never told you could do both. And now I was doing both. And fully supported by my family and my husband and building relationships. having opportunities to the point where I did think, well, at some point, if this does fail, I've learned a lot and I'm really proud of what I've done. Yeah. And like you said, along the path, not everything was a success after success after success. There were certain things that were failures. And Carol Dweck wrote a book called The Growth Mindset, which I love. It's a fabulous book. And in there, she says, in the growth mindset, failure can be a painful experience. but it doesn't define you. It's a problem to be faced, dealt with, and learned from. And so what you had to find, I would assume, would be that growth mindset as opposed to a fixed mindset, which is, I don't want to fail. I might fail, but I can't fail, so I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to take that step. And then you found a way to shift that paradigm to a growth mindset of embracing like, okay, these things might fail. Were there any... failures that you had that you drew strength from realizing that you could overcome it. You could take that and learn from it and grow from that failure. Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know,

20:15 I can think back on specific conversations with employees that I just, I just think, ah, I would do that differently. And I, and then I do it differently. I learn from it or, I mean, as a parent, you, you do that every single day. And, um, so, so yeah, for sure. Those are the things that really stick out or just maybe things that how I might've handled a situation. Yeah. Because in one of the things that I think we sometimes forget when we talk about these things is like, we can look at failure as an opportunity, right. To learn. It doesn't mean it's not hard. Yeah. Like failing's not fun. Maybe some people can look at it as fun. And I do like meet the Robinsons because they make it. a fun event when it was like yeah he said he fails in this thing he tried to create they all celebrate right and i love that idea but in practical like day -to -day life feeling like sometimes really stinks i i've had you know plenty of experiences where you know clearly not working out with an employee you know do everything that i can clearly like i could have done things better and then you have to part ways and it stinks like I don't know what your experience is, but firing somebody is like one of my least favorite things that I ever have to do. It's just awful. I hate it.

21:32 Yeah. Keeps you up at night. Yeah. Cause you, you learn to care about people, whether they're the right person there and, and it's, yeah, that's really difficult. I don't think you ever would get used to that. Yeah. I mean, for some reason, some people do and they embrace it and they love it. Not me, not you sounds like, but it is every time it happens, it is an opportunity to kind of. take a look at it. Now, I do think it's also important in those situations, and I love your take on this and your experience with this, but not to observe the things that that person did wrong, right? It wasn't entirely your fault for them, you know, needing to be let go, but just assessing what you can do differently. Was that ever hard? Was it, did you ever look at it like, oh my gosh, this is completely my failure. They got let go and then realized like, no, actually it wasn't. Like I had a role, but so did they.

22:20 Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Just maybe they didn't get coached enough. Another thing we always try to do, we would say they're maybe just not on the right seat on the bus. Yeah. Yeah, Jim Collins, good to great. Look at you. You're drawing on some classic stuff right there. And one of my biggest joys is knowing that person belongs on the bus and finding the right seat for them. And sometimes that's, I mean, that's actually one of the most satisfying things. in owning a business that i and people will ask me what's what's the thing what's the hardest thing about owning a business and i would say the people and then the best thing are the people yeah you know you learn the most and um but but if i couldn't find the right seat on the bus for them that's hard yeah it's super hard you know at some point in time the business y 'all started was obviously very small right yeah all businesses start out that way and that's where it's also sometimes hard because the size of the business might mean there's just not another seat at that stage right like this person could be a really great person and have a skill set but the bust you have right now just doesn't have a lot of seats yeah and that's tough and that's tough and and then trying to have that conversation with somebody too about about that and Trying to help them understand like I understand you do have great skill sets without them feeling like you're just you know being phony Yeah, I struggle with that. Yeah,

23:51 you want to be sincere. I'm not giving false praise, right? But I do want them to like understand and know like no there are some things you do Well, we just don't have that right now. Yeah here, which is tough. Yeah, it's really hard. So Okay, coming back this this perfectionism thing So another quote from incanto you ready for this? This is when Isabella and Mirabel are having a conversation, right? They're talking and Mirabel is trying to understand how she's supposed to repair this relationship with her sister because she comes to realization from Bruno's vision that she's supposed to, right? That's the key to fixing Casita and the miracle, right? Not having to kind of go out. And Mirabel says to Isabella that she's selfish. Right. She's kind of like she's just like mad at her. Oh, you're just selfish. Because you have the perfect life. Yes. Exactly. Because you do have the perfect life. And Isabella says, selfish. I've been stuck being perfect my whole entire life. And literally the only thing you have ever done for me is mess things up. And so it's suddenly like in this moment, it's like, oh, my goodness. She is way deeper than you thought. She is not this perfect princess that Nita Bell was saying she was. That she's really just been doing things for everybody else. And she's been self -abandoning. Yeah.

25:10 Right? Yeah. In Encanto, what do you think it took for her to overcome that? And how is that paralleled for you in your life? Probably the misunderstanding of who she really is. Like, she has to put... put out this perfect persona everything's fine and then for some reason she let that guard down yeah i mean not for some reason she let it down because she's being told your life is perfect and she's thinking this isn't perfect to me you know absolutely and it's that breaking point and i i i remember similar things in my own life where i'm like it looks this way but it isn't i know inside it's not and then at some point something has to give right yeah and And what one of the most beautiful parts of that movie, I think, and that's why it's hard for me to I can relate to almost most of those characters, honestly, especially the three sisters. But I, I think for her, when she was just able to be herself, it was a little messy, but it was beautiful and colorful. It wasn't this perfect, you know, the most perfect flowers that are it was. brighter and more vibrant and and that i think is where i relate to to her is that finally just i still want to be a certain part of me this is still a part of me but there's another part that i'm not showing to people and and even for myself showing and

26:44 it is a little more colorful it's a little messier it's not as perfect right absolutely and you know when i think one of the things that's really beautiful in this story the way that it's told is is the role that mirabelle plays in helping isabella realize that yeah right and in that song what else can i do because you know to some extent that release she was just waiting for that to come out she just needed permission yeah she just needed her mission and i think that's where you really start to see again the gifts that mirabelle has to help her family see their value beyond just their gift yeah And their value beyond just doing perfect flowers all the time. Their value beyond Louisa having to always just be strong for everybody. And the burden of having that gift that everyone relies on and expects from you without being able to just be yourself sometimes. She, the whole time, gets to be herself.

27:40 And that's beautiful, but feels bad. It's just a really beautiful... Yeah. Story. And I do think that part of the reason why it works so well is like you pointed out, it's like you can see things in the main characters that apply to all of us, right? For anybody that's ever dealt with perfectionism, Misa Vela is fantastic. But same thing with Luisa, someone who's ever felt like it always rests on their shoulders. They're always the one who have to carry everybody else's burdens. And they can't show any cracks. They can't show any weaknesses because they have to be strong for everybody else. I think moms have to experience that a lot. You're a mom, right? Yes, I'm a mom.

28:21 Four kids. Four kids. I was going to say, I'm pretty sure it's four. Four. Maybe all over. 20? Yeah. My youngest is 21. My goodness. Yeah. but i think i think a lot of times moms have to carry that or they feel like they have to care and then no they don't but i feel like they have to carry it for the whole family they have to hold it together for the whole family um i mean mom guilt's a real thing right i've heard so many women uh doing what i do right which is divorce talk about that like oh i gotta i gotta go to work or i gotta go back to work and feeling mom guilt for that because they've held the family together for so long they're like louisa right being strong for everybody all the time doing everything for everybody all the time did you ever experience that as a mom well i i i think it's a little it's i'll just tell you what mine was and then we'll just dive in there i love it let's do it girl i'm here for it i was a stay -at -home mom yeah and i got to be that and i was really that's what i that's what i wanted to do yeah blessing right and i Um, I, I did the whole thing where I got married pretty young. I had kids pretty young and I, um, had all four of my kids by the time I was 29. My oldest is 29, which is so wild to think about. And, um, but this is, this is where, this is that a little bit of, this isn't what inside that eight year old strawberry shortcake, wild hair girl probably would have done if I'd had more options in my life. I would have loved to be told, you can be a mom and explore life out

29:52 here. And so what was happening in, and again, it's just looking back because I have a really beautiful life that I would never, ever want to change. But I had a lot of built up feelings toward, and I didn't realize it, but it's maybe where we go to Moana. I just felt a little. You know, she's on this beautiful island, but she sees that there's more out there. The thing is, it was that opportunity with that business that I really was given this opportunity to step out of that role, continue to do it, which I loved, but then explore. I kind of went past the...

30:38 where you're supposed to go past the reef and it was hard and it was yeah no one goes beyond the reef right that's what her dad says right like no can't do it she's like no i got it yeah and and she did it and i and and the nice thing in my life is when i did that when i when i felt called to do that and felt brave to do it i had the support of my family and and so that's where i just think um The mom guilt didn't come in because I mean, you know, you, you mess up your kids while I'm home with the kids. I'm, you know, you yell, you get, you lose your cool, but, and then you feel bad and all of that. So yes, definitely had mom guilt, but maybe in a different way. But once I was exploring and learning about myself, I really loved it. I really loved it. And my kids loved it too. Turns out they loved me being this. brave person doing something that i didn't believe i could do before we jump back in can i ask you a quick favor if you're enjoying the journey so far will you like rate and subscribe to our show it helps us reach more people like you we can design and create and build the most wonderful place in the world but it takes people to make the dream a reality I mean, it's a great example of your kids. Of your four kids, boys and girls, what's the next? Three girls and then a boy. It's the thing about for those three girls, right? Hey, my mom went and did this thing. Yeah.

32:08 Like she realized that she could be a great mom and also... do something that she feels called to do, do something in business. Yeah. And my, my conversations with my kids are different than what mine were. And I, I don't, nobody, nobody's to blame. I'm not mad at anyone. It was just the narrative I grew up in, you know, but, and I placed on myself truly, but, um, I say to my kids, you can have it all. You can get married if you want. You don't have to get married. You can have kids. You don't have to have kids. You can. build a career if you have kids and want to stay home that's beautiful and you know like i i want all the options to be there for them so that they really can see that because that's the one thing i lacked was that and i know it sounds so dumb i but it really is like this is this is your path and it's a beautiful path yeah and that was the only option i was given yeah so it was really beautiful when i was given an opportunity to go past the reef learn about myself well and if we if we take a take a look at it through the lens of mulan as well right yes you know mulan has these expectations of what she's supposed to do she's probably not a perfectionist Uh, right. Uh, she, she does mess up things a lot, but, but she's kind of, there's this prescriptive path that she's supposed to have. She's supposed to go, you know, get all dolled up and go have a husband chosen for her and all these things.

33:31 Yes. Right. And, and yet she's called to something else and she's called to it by really not a lot of choices to save her dad. Right. Like she believes in something bigger and greater. than you know doing the perfect thing that everybody else thinks that she's supposed to do and she does what she believes is right right and um now she doesn't have a lot of support unfortunately right right and so she goes down this path but but being forced into it like for you what what do you see that she kind of learns in that journey going down this path of like stepping into something because she's compelled to as opposed to somebody giving it to her yeah i mean she learns that You kind of think of those learning to do the battle scenes and the training and all of that.

34:23 She's not as coordinated. She's always behind. But then this bigger cause inspires her and she works hard and does it. That's right. She has the discipline. Much like you were saying you did. She had that discipline where she ends up surpassing all of these guys because she's got this discipline and this focus on what's the purpose behind what she's doing. Yeah. She just had never had the opportunity to do that. But once she did, she showed that she could do it. And I think she showed too that she was, what's the right word I'm looking for? Ingenuitive is not the right word, but like that she was able to think of things and think through problems that other people couldn't and didn't. Yeah.

35:07 Right. When the Huns had slaughtered the majority part of the army they had, and now they're trying to fight this huge army. She's the one that figures out what to do causes to avalanche because she's thinking outside the box She at this point time has stepped into that power that she has to create something different much like Isabella was right and do something that It for that point in time saves the army and and then does it again once they try to take the Emperor Yeah, she figures out how to how to help save the Emperor and by doing so save all of China So, you know, I think there's some great parallels there too for what we see in when somebody is given the opportunity, and Hershey kind of takes it, but given that opportunity to step into something different.

35:52 And so for you, you're kind of given this opportunity for this new business, this new venture. What do you think are the biggest things that you learned about yourself through that experience of starting a business? So starting a new one or the first one? Starting the first one. The first one. I learned that I can be innovative. Yeah. And you can because because I didn't go to business school and I don't have an MBA. So I don't know the textbook answers or here's you know, and there's probably not a real answer to everything. But but I think I went into it with no knowledge. But what I figured out is a process. that like I, one of my main, I had a lot of responsibilities and so did my business partner. When you're only two people, you just kind of take on a lot, right? But mine was a lot of the operations and I needed to order product and I figured out, like I could go on and on about that, but basically I didn't know how to do it. I didn't know there were programs. I didn't know there were things you could do to make it easier. I did it the hard way, but it was because that's all I knew. And I figured it out. But what that did was teach me the process and exactly why you do things. And then I also learned the value of the phrase, you fake it till you make it. There's value in that. And I learned that.

37:22 I learned that you can figure things out. You can figure things out without the degree. I learned that there were not very many obstacles that you can't overcome. And then if you can't overcome it, maybe that's not the way you're supposed to go or you just try to go around it and do it a different way. There's a lot of ways to tackle a problem. Totally. And to do that, though, you had to find, I'm sure, a little bit more of that self -esteem and self -worth to have the confidence to do that. because otherwise that's learned something if something wasn't working that could totally paralyze you cripple you yeah yeah well when i'm when i'm watching meet the robinsons and he he fails his his you know his invention fails he kind of gets stuck and he's like well he gives up a little bit right totally and that would have been me that and maybe in the beginning that was me but i i sometimes when you've got more than just yourself riding on something you're a little like like mulan you have that motivation to figure it out and get there yeah so so another another quote i want to run by uh this is from one of my favorites uh jamie kern lima and she says in her book uh worthy self -confidence is the belief in your abilities as a person self -worth is the belief in your value as a person oh i like that so for

38:53 you where where did that lie in in understanding your value as a person that it was inherent right much like mirabel had to learn like the gift is me yeah i don't have to have some other special gift the gift is like who i am how how did that come to light for you and what did that feel like man i think that'll probably be something i have to remind myself of my whole life but i i think as you As you go through certain trials and see how you respond and grow, that just naturally happens. But I don't know that I'll ever figure that out fully. Sure. You know? Well, I do think it's, and that's okay. Yeah. Right? I think, though, knowing that and reminding yourself of that over time is very helpful. Yes. Because it is easy to get down on ourselves when we do have something that doesn't work. Or we have people that doubt us. Or we have conflict with other people. It's easy to think that we're not enough and that we're not good enough. Yeah.

40:03 And I think what I've learned is it's okay to feel the feelings. You're going to feel really, really low, really, really angry. And then you just say, okay, that's what it was. And then you move forward. Yeah. You just, you know, like. Maybe there is something you can learn from it. Maybe you're totally misunderstood and not You know you you haven't been treated well, and then you and That's okay. Yeah, honestly sometimes life isn't fair right yeah, and you just What do you do now? What's ahead of you now? Let's keep moving forward. Yeah, and that's that's gotten me through some hard things For sure.

40:48 Yeah. And, you know, on that note of keeping them forward, one of the things that you've done recently is open a new chapter. Yeah. Started at a new place. Yeah. In the COO role. What would you say is maybe the biggest lesson you've learned from starting this new chapter? Right. There are certain lessons you had when you all started that business. And now there's probably new lessons you have as you're transitioning to a new opportunity. What what's maybe some of the biggest lessons you've learned from that? It's it's been a really great opportunity to look back and appreciate where I am now. I think that's the biggest thing. And just like that's a big thing. I I came into this new opportunity. and had some doubts within myself but then just dug in it's that whole thing like i can't keep i can't let the past hold me back let's just move forward and be grateful for what i have really and it's interesting how quickly i my mindset changed so quickly but i think it's healthy to feel the feelings yeah because they're valid and then you move on and um and now it's with excitement but this is there's It's not a, there's risk, there's uncertainty, but the things I believe in are, I believe in this business, I believe in the people and the why behind this business. And so my, you know,

42:20 with my first opportunity, I was in that for 15 years and I learned a lot. But what this new opportunity is doing for me is really highlighting what I learned. Sure. Because I'm coming in and there's things that were just kind of the norm, the day to day. And now it's, and it's not, and it's nothing against, I mean, the people here are wonderful, wonderful, smart people. And they're just, it's kind of in the early stages of where we were with my first business. I remember those days and you're just. putting out fires. You're just trying to survive. And that's where they are. And so I've been able to come in and say, well, here's some things that we can help with.

43:01 And I'm realizing, okay, I do know what I'm doing. And it's exciting. And I don't know everything. I will never think I know everything, but I have something to offer. And that's the difference. I think this time I'm thinking I have something to offer and I can help. where before i wasn't quite sure about that for sure you know and when you're in a role that you're in right as a coo you're obviously going to have a lot of people that report to you directly that you manage what what how do you coach your people when they're experiencing self -doubt um or the fear of failure i talk to him like i would want someone to talk to me back in my teenage you know early adulthood i would want them to say it's okay to fail You figured it out. I don't want anyone like I would never shame a person for failing. What did we learn from it? Let's not make that mistake again, if possible. And, you know, it's just a whole it's a learning. I I love I've recently read.

44:04 Well, it was a few years ago, but Adam Grant has a book and it's all about being a scientist and showing curiosity. And I I think it's called Think Again. And it's just. it's so refreshing and that's how i try to talk to people yeah how can we think of it differently adam grant's one of my favorites yeah for sure um and you know i do think that curiosity especially as a leader when you're um the people in your charge um do mess up or make a mistake but being curious about why about how it happened i think it goes a long way into building that relationship too yeah right i want to be a safe person as their leader i want to coach and guide, not micromanage, not do the work for them. I want to remove obstacles that I can to help them be their best self. Yeah.

44:56 Yeah. So, um, another, another quote to read for you. And we kind of talked about it. We just referenced it briefly, but I just, I love it so much. And so I'm going to read it to you and I'm going to not cry when I do it. Okay. Um, so it's at the end when, um, they're rebuilding the casita, right. And the gifts are all gone. Nobody's got their gift anymore. And Mirabelle is really starting to realize what she brings to the table. And then the song goes, just one more thing before the celebration. We need a doorknob. We made this one for you. We see how... Told you. I cried. We see how bright you burn. We see how brave you've been. Now see yourself in turn. You're the real gift, kid. Let us in.

45:43 I just think it's such a beautiful way. of of kind of coming full circle for them all to embrace her and um and to me that's kind of why it's also why the importance of people in our lives that will do that for us and that we do for them because she had supported so many of them and helping them step into their power and then they in turn they can help her everything is so beautiful yeah okay so the first the first kind of fun segment we're gonna do is this or that so it's just whichever one you think out of these two and if it's a controversial opinion we will call you out we will call you out no we won't right we won't um okay the first one flowers or cacti flowers yeah totally fair right like it's probably an easy one even though i love isabella with the cacti but you know it's flowers um singing or dancing singing okay singing or playing the piano playing the piano Okay. I had a hunch based on our pre -show. I was like, I'm pretty sure it might be playing the piano. Okay. It's totally fair. The singing part would be with a choir, not alone. Do you ever sing alone? You ever sing a solo? I have, but I, it's not my strength.

46:49 No, it's not your, not your favorite. Are you good at it? You just don't love doing it. I think I'm, I think I'm average and I don't love the attention. I kind of love, that's why I like the piano because I'm a part of something, but then I'm. I'm kind of hidden. Sure, an essential component, and yet you don't have to be front and center, which I actually think is such a, I mean, I'm going to take this back. I'm going to detour for a second. I do think it's such an important thing that people understand more about when you're looking at leadership in a business or an organization, which is that difference between sometimes what we called, and we had a conversation about this, which is the visionary and the integrator. Because it's essential to have both. It's essential for both to value the other and understand what that is. Because you don't have to be front and center to have immense impact on an organization. yeah right in fact adam grant speaking of him talks a lot about that like sometimes it's actually the person who's more quiet who actually has more to say and we should probably listen to yeah i remember him saying that yeah and i'm i'm with it i think he's right i think he's right okay sorry i had a detour that's okay i forgot to talk about that i love it yeah came to my mind and i just had to circle back okay um making crafts or working in the garden crafts big craft gal not a big garden gal i'm a i love grandma hobbies I love all the groundwork. You like crochet and knit?

48:07 Yeah, I just learned to crochet. I don't know how to knit, but that's on the radar. I love to quilt, cross -stitch. My 10 -year -old daughter is learning how to crochet. Oh, yeah. In fact, when I left this morning and I was telling her goodbye, she was on her bed, and she's like, got this book, and she's like, do it. I'm like, all right, girl, get it. Girl, learn how to crochet at 10. This is amazing. It's really fun, yeah. Okay, river or lake? Lake. I assume so. Once I learned that, like, you got a house on a lake, I'm like, it's got to be the lake. It's the lake. It's got to be the lake. Yeah. Okay, fair. Physical book or audio book? Okay, I'm strange. I'm always reading three. I always have a physical, an audio, and a Kindle. I'm always in three books. Oh, wow. Because there's always an opportunity to, like, my Kindle's when I'm trying to, you know, fall asleep and it's dark. And audio is if I'm out walking. And I just like a physical. I'll never give up on physical books. So if I had to choose physical. Okay, if you had to choose, that's what it would be. Yeah. I have fully given up on physical books. Yeah, and I get it. Oh, and I can't go back. But I've always been a reader.

49:13 Yeah. And there's just nothing that makes me more happy than a library or a bookstore. I do. There is something fun about a library. I mean, I grew up going to it. My dad's a school teacher. And so we would go to the library all the time. The smell of a book. There is something to that. I'm also just lazy and like holding it open and like you're sitting there to like lay in bed and you're like, you know, falling on your face. That's why the Kindle can be nice. So you just do all three. That's right. I like the idea of all three. It's great. Okay. Beach or mountains? Mountains. Yeah. Okay. That surprises me. I was thinking you were going to go beach. Tell me more. I guess sunburns. okay and i get a little yeah that's true i get a little bored i want like a half a day on the beach yeah but that's oregon's great then you get a little both but it's kind of cold too it is it's not not not as hot but it's not as easy to get burned either because it's not that searing heat the uv is not quite so high oregon coast is beautiful though oh my goodness you're on the beach with the mountains right there Beautiful. I'm assuming Cannon Beach is one you've been to as well there, which is just phenomenal. Have you been to Astoria? Yeah.

50:19 Oh, goodness. The cutest city. It is the cutest city. It's just like it's right out of a movie. And it literally is. Right out of Goonies and Kindergarten Cop. Oh, I didn't know that one. But it's also like that's why because it's just that way. It's just this like picturesque little town. Yeah. Love it. Okay. Soda? Or dirty soda? Dirty soda. Oh, you're a dirty soda gal. Okay, what's your dirty soda of choice? Usually, if I do it, I'll get either a Diet Coke or a Diet Dr. Pepper with lime and coconut. just not very good combo kind of basic i mean i love it um you know when i go to like swig or these places i usually just get the soda and i'm like why am i here i know it's because somebody else is i'm like i guess i'll go and i'll you know pay twice as much for just getting the soda my favorite thing though they have a water like it's a strawberry breeze that's my favorite really yeah it's water with coconut and little strawberry. That's kind of what I get. So I don't drink as much soda, but just because this is so good. That's probably a good thing. I should drink less soda. Okay.

51:26 Board game or a puzzle? Puzzle. Big puzzle. You big puzzle family or just you? Yeah. I mean, certain members love a puzzle, but I love a puzzle. Yeah. My wife loves a puzzle. Like her and her family can get together and just like... silence do this puzzle for hours and I'm like I'm like falling asleep I'm like yeah you wake me up when you've got a few left and you know I'll figure it out at that point yeah okay let's move to our rapid -fire okay so just first one that comes to your mind no pressure you know there's no right answers here we won't we won't criticize you for an answer okay favorite Disney movie Encanto yeah favorite Disney song Okay, I heard you ask someone else this, so I thought about it, and it depends on my mood. So true. That's a very fair point. Because there's a lot of fun ones, but the Lin -Manuel Miranda will always, any song from him is so good. But the Caterpillar one in Canto. Oh, yeah, Dos Oroguitas. How do you not cry? Oh, my goodness. But then if you want something that's kind of fun, it's the Hercules one that the muses sing. Oh, yeah, the gospel truth. Who puts the glad in gladiators. Yeah.

52:39 Or zero to hero. Or gospel truth, too. I love that. Zero to hero. Anytime the muses sing. The muses are great in that show. They're just so good and sassy. They're so fun. I love it. I love the sass from them. So it just kind of depends on my mood. That's why I've got a good Disney playlist that we listen to. What's your favorite? If I had to pick one, it's either Family Madrigal or it's You're Welcome. oh yeah i think you're welcome was like i know why they didn't put that one up for being nominated for the oscar like i know why they didn't um how far how far i'll go like i get it but that was actually the best song from that movie and and it should i think they should have put it up and i think it should have won because it was such uh i don't know such a well -crafted song that was so memorable because it's lin -manuel yeah it's it was catchy and we don't talk about bruno's pretty amazing too but yeah but how far you'll go makes me cry sometimes yeah or let it go you know just yo yeah let it go did you like frozen too because i loved it yeah but the only disadvantage is my kids were older during the frozen era so we didn't get as familiar with those but They're wonderful. Yeah, whereas, like, my two girls, my two little girls, when Frozen 2 came out, they were, like, prime age for it. Yeah. So I'd already liked Frozen 1, and then Frozen 2 comes out. Now I actually might like Frozen 2 more than Frozen 1. That's a hot take, everybody.

54:04 A hot take. It's a hot take. I know it's a few years since that came out. But Frozen 3 is going to come out, so we'll see. Oh, is it? Yeah, next year, I think. Oh, great. They've been recording with Kristen Bell. I saw that post because she's amazing. She is. Okay. Favorite Disney princess? Speaking of princesses. Well, Mulan is just different. And I love that. I love the ones that are just a little more adventurous. So I love Moana. They don't have to be these perfect girls. Because I love maybe a rule. Like I said, I love rule breakers. I admire it so much. Someone who's willing to put themselves out there. Okay, so I'm actually going to throw in another this or that because it's going to lead to my next question for the rapid fire. disneyland or disney world it'll probably always be disneyland that's where i grew up going but i have a real love for disney world too same yeah same the nostalgia is unmatched for me in disneyland it just is is unmatched yeah but boy i love me some disney world i know i'm not gonna say no to it exactly i will never say no yeah um okay so that being said favorite ride at disneyland okay um That's hard, because my favorite ride is in Disney World, actually.

55:22 Okay, and what's your favorite ride? Guardians of the Galaxy. Oh, Epcot? And Epcot. It's because it's just incredible. It's fun every single time, every single time. And I'm older, and it's really gentle on, you know, it just puts you into those curves. And just the whole presentation of it, where they've infused in the whole story to it, and you see things projected. I mean, I don't know, I was listening to a... disney podcast actually the other day and they were talking about i think it cost a billion dollars to build and i'm like worth everything worth every penny because i love it yeah but pirates probably in disneyland pirates which is so good yeah it's one of those classics pirates cars for me it's cars at night oh yeah cars at night is like it's magic yeah my wife and i both love cars at night like we like wait intentionally to go on that ride until it's nighttime so we can go on i'm just like cruising through the the little town yeah such such a fun place at night that's a great place at night okay which incanto character do you relate to most um probably isabel okay yeah totally fair perfectionist What's your favorite book right now? Oh, man. I have so many books I love. That's why I threw in the right now because I was like, when I was thinking about myself, I was like, man, of all time, I don't really know that I could answer that question. But like right now, okay, I probably could come up with one. Well, I do. I like any book. I'm so. I just

56:53 love to read so much. But I think that, have you heard of the Emma M. Lyon books? Those are delightful books. They're like kind of a Pride and Prejudice type language, but funny. Actually, Pride and Prejudice is funny too. But I'm reading a sci -fi book right now that is... Giving me life and I don't know is this the one that I we talked about before dungeon crawler Carl Yeah, that has got to be on my list. I've got to download that not to tell me what you think Kindle unlimited. Yeah it's really unlimited yeah and they're like eight books out holy moly so you're set i know i'm gonna be because that is the thing i hate waiting for books to have to come out in a series it's i get so impatient with that and then yeah you go back and reread them so the fact there's eight out is perfect because then i can just dive into them yeah it sounds amazing but those are i i'll think back on this and hate this answer so much so but i i love every book i love books you just love books uh i mean books are so great um comfort food what's your comfort food um I love spaghetti. Good spaghetti is delicious.

57:59 So good. Dream vacation spot? Europe. I love, we just went on to the UK. And we spent, I spent several weeks there. And just going all around. Because I love getting to know other cultures. history. I love history. I don't remember it well, but I love history. And Europe's a great place for that. Yeah. So, so probably I would love, you know, a real good, like either France or Italy, just like diving in and spending a few weeks there. And just Spain I've heard is wonderful. yeah i mean france give me give me a little paris and i'm there because i would go to disneyland paris a hundred percent have you been there no so i've been to new york but only for three days it was kind of a and and i i actually felt something there like there's a part of me there yeah i don't know it's one of those it's a little cliche but i felt it there i mean there's a reason why it's so popular because a lot of people feel that way about it right i mean i'm also a big uh believer in like the experiencing the food of the place you go to yeah yeah in france there's almost no better place maybe italy would be better but yeah uh boy those are two are pretty high on the list around every corner yeah no doubt about it okay so the way that we like to end every episode is our guest giving us three actionable takeaways

59:33 uh based on the topic that we were discussing okay so for you What are three things that somebody could put into effect in their life today or this week that could help them when it comes to overcoming fear of failure, working through or past perfectionism, right? Trying to find more self -worth for understanding kind of who they are. What would your three... actionable takeaways be? We talked about it one time, but curiosity to me is one of the most important traits that a person can have. And I've really tried to instill that. And so a lot of times when I hear something that I just don't, I instantly put a guard up with. I've learned to say what I've kind of... I'm checking myself. Like, why do you feel this way? Why do you feel so strongly about this? And I'll just start to be curious about why I have this guard up and then just asking questions. We should never be afraid to ask questions, ask why and figure out why you maybe responded a certain way. Curiosity to me is so good. And that just goes right into a little like. Well, I don't know if it goes into it, but that that whole self abandonment thing to being true to yourself, because I think if I'd shown if I had shown a little more curiosity

1:01:05 in those early years, I would have instead of conforming and just doing what I thought I was supposed to be doing. Why do I feel this way? And, you know, and really exploring that that whole thing with. feeling a little bit stuck. Yeah. But not understanding why you're thinking this is, this is what you're supposed to be doing and it's good and it is, but also why do you feel this way? So that curiosity. Okay. You know, I love it. So, um, if, if I can, uh, um, kind of recap to see if I'm getting this correct, cause I love this. I would say, as I understand it this week, if somebody feels like their guard goes up, ask. First, be curious. Yeah. Be curious as to why. Yeah. Ask questions to figure out why that guard went up. And then maybe be adventurous and try something new to be true to yourself and not self -abandon. Yeah. I think so. Did I get that right? Yeah. Because we all do that.

1:02:08 You hear something, maybe it's on social media or a person at work or someone, and you're instantly like, I don't know about that. I don't think so. But do you really not know? And maybe there's an opportunity to learn from a person and be open to their information. There's a lot. I mean, this can go even into work where maybe you hear some feedback that you don't like. But their reality is their reality, right? And maybe it's about you. And you have to kind of think to yourself, okay, take a deep breath and listen to the feedback and learn from it. That's why I love the trigger point that you're explaining, which is when your guard goes up. Because I hadn't thought about it through that lens of like, next time my guard goes up, go through this. Hit these things because that's a trigger to say like, okay, if my guard's going up, I need to dig in. I need to be a little more curious. I need to figure this out. I love that. Yeah. It's fantastic. Well, Angie, thank you so much for being on with us today. We are inspired by you, by your path, by the things that you've overcome and shown people in general, but certainly women, of stepping into your power and who you are and not being afraid to try something new, learning what your skills are and that you really can. do other things and do all the things and find even more happiness in your life. So just such a pleasure visiting with you. Thank you. I enjoyed it too. Got it. As you leave this

1:03:39 conversation, remember that yes, the past can hurt and you can either run from it or you can learn from it. So here's to learning and finding joy in the journey. See you real soon.